dfOAFC Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 I could sit here and make up things all day long to justifie my points... could? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macca Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Ohhh, it's always as easy as that innit. Try telling that to someone in their early 50's with 10 years of mortgage left to pay and finding themselves on the scrapheap because most companies quite obviously seek younger candidates. Aye, fúck small businesses, hey. Survival of the fittest and all that. Yeah I think you took my words as though I don't give a damn, that's completely false. I wouldn't like to see any business go under or anyone to lose their jobs, but due to changes businesses and jobs do go because they aren't viable anymore. Today I've had a nightmare on the roads, everywhere queuing. Didn't help the M62 being closed for hours but from Irlam to Oldham, via Deansgate must have taken me a good 3 hours this evening, absolutely shocking, cars jumping red lights just so they can be passed the junction or stopping on the yellow hatchings meaning nothing can move at all! It was an absolute joke and something needs to be done about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latics4Ever Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Definite NO Vote for me. It is yet another tax by a Labour Government/Council designed to take money out of the pockets of the workers. If they want to improve the public transport system, then just use the money they are dangling as a carrot and do it. If money has to be raised, then add £5 to everybody's council tax bill with effect from next year in all 10 regions and they would raise the money within the 5 years plus more besides. Also, ROAD FUND LICENCE TAX is paid by ALL motorists to improve the ROAD NETWORK....Therefore, use this money the motorist already HAS to pay along with the other taxes they currently pay on their vehicle (VAT, MOT, Fuel Duty, Insurance Premium Tax). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_latics Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I can see his posts in your reply The blocker dosent seem to block replies... You seem a little adamant on this. Each person benifits or loses for personal reasons and they will vote yes or no based on that. I live in Worsley and we don't get any improvement other than an express bus! In fact the whole north west corner of Greater Manchester (I hate saying that!) has no inferstructure improvements planned. My wife works in Wythenshawe, it would be impossible for her to get to work without a car, it would involve driving to a local train station, getting a train to Manchester and then a bus to Wythenshawe, it's not practical. There are thousands of people with similar personal stories and that's why the answer to the big question will be 'NO'. 99% of people I have spoken to will vote no, look at the poll on this site, the evidence is stacking up. You have your reasons for voting YES and no doubt for you it's right, but not everone sees it that way, hence the vote. We don't have to jump at the first suggestion, it needs to be revised. In needs to be costed properly too, you just know it will run over budget and then what? clobber the motorist again? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_latics Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Yeah I think you took my words as though I don't give a damn, that's completely false. I wouldn't like to see any business go under or anyone to lose their jobs, but due to changes businesses and jobs do go because they aren't viable anymore. Today I've had a nightmare on the roads, everywhere queuing. Didn't help the M62 being closed for hours but from Irlam to Oldham, via Deansgate must have taken me a good 3 hours this evening, absolutely shocking, cars jumping red lights just so they can be passed the junction or stopping on the yellow hatchings meaning nothing can move at all! It was an absolute joke and something needs to be done about it. And you think tonight wouldn't have happened with the odd tram and extra bus here and there? The M60 was clear tonight you should have come on at Irlam and got off in Oldham, unless you had reason to go via Deansgate. How long would this journey take you on public transport, even with the improvements? Walk to the station, wait for a train, train to Manchester Oxford road, either walk to victoria, get a bus, or get a train from oxford road to piccadilly where you can get a tram across town, then on to another train. Just the train journeys according to the GMPTE planner would take 1hr 30 to 1hr 45, this does not include waiting at the station, walking to the station and getting home from Mumps. It would probably match you 3hr journey in the car, cost you more, be less comfortable and safe and this was on a night when a major motorway was shut for the afternoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Now has anyone ever tried lugging the sort of thing you take on holiday on public transport in this country I take it that you have never done backpacking then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I take it that you have never done backpacking then? Er yeah I have that was my point. Carrying something large onto public transport in cities is a big problem (and just this country but others as well) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Er yeah I have that was my point. Carrying something large onto public transport in cities is a big problem (and just this country but others as well) So how do you propose public transport could bridge the gap of you having to put some effort in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellys_discopants Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I`ve gone for no ... shut my eyes and did ip-dip-doo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 So how do you propose public transport could bridge the gap of you having to put some effort in? Its not just about me putting any effort in its about where you put bags. There is no where on the Metrolink to specifically put bags of a size bigger than a small rucksac, its the same for the tube (in London) or the Metro (in Newcastle) or the Underground in Boston or the New york Subway or the Sydney trams/trains or the mass transit systems of places like Vancover or Toronto etc. Buses in the UK sometimes have space (but I've found this space is usually taken up with where they keep the Metros or someones shopping) but how far away from Picadilly station does a bus stop and then how far is it at the other end from the bus stop to wherever you are going. The price difference between a bus from Picadilly to my parents house in Heywood and a taxi between the same is about £10 and having taken the bus with heavy bags on one occassion in the future I would happily spend the extra money so I didn't have to carry my bag that much further and spend an hours bus ride with my large rucksac wedged somewhere where it isn't designed to go because the local transport companies can't be bothered to fit a space into their bus for luggage. I would quite happily pay extra (as is standard in taxis) for my luggage if there was somewhere specifically designed to store it and not just a random free bit of space because that day's waste of paper has been used already. As a advocate of public transport so much when you go on holiday, am I right in assuming you get the bus from your residence to the station and then catch the commuter train from Warrington (again not a great deal of space for suitcases on that bad boy) to Picadilly and then get the train from Picadilly to the airport (and depending on what train that is depends on the amount of space for bags on it) and then have to trek halfway across Cheshire (or so it seems) from the airport station to the check in desk. Or do you just get a taxi to the airport? The point I was making in my original post (the reply to which I was responding to and then you quoted) is that having a Metrolink line to the airport instead of a train is a waste of money as 90% of people won't use it as in today's society people are quite happy to pay more if it means they have to do less. This congestion charge scheme is in part going to fund this change and it seems like a thing being funded just because it seems right to do but when you look at the logistics will just turn out to be a white elephant for a lot of time. I will admit that commuters/business people who are using the airport to go somewhere for a day or two, so only have small bags, might use it but then again they can usually get expenses for the taxi to the airport so maybe they won't. Its quite simple I've not been to any city, I am well travelled but not excessively so, in the world that adequately can transport people from an airport/train station with their luggage on public transport. The closest I've seen is Palma where the buses that serve the airport have a decent amount of space to carry luggage but isn't always adequate (and they aren't the same bus as the usual ones). If a service exists people will use it but I don't see the point in spending money changing a service which is OK to one which is poor just because the poorer service is a more standard one. Even then what will happen to the trains that serve the airport but go much further afield than Greater Manchester (to the North East for example) will these trains now terminate at Picadilly and anyone wanting to go to the airport will then have to get on an idequate Metrolink just because that is what some people in an office have decided is the best option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Its not just about me putting any effort in its about where you put bags. I have got public transport to Manchester Airport many a time.... The bus has a place for large bags and so do the trains... I accept your point about the metrolink though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) As a advocate of public transport so much when you go on holiday, am I right in assuming you get the bus from your residence to the station and then catch the commuter train from Warrington (again not a great deal of space for suitcases on that bad boy) to Picadilly and then get the train from Picadilly to the airport (and depending on what train that is depends on the amount of space for bags on it) and then have to trek halfway across Cheshire (or so it seems) from the airport station to the check in desk. Or do you just get a taxi to the airport? Sometimes taxi, sometimes drive and park and sometimes public transport... I have used all these methods... Getting to either manchester or liverpool airpot is easy from warrington. I can get the local train to Manchester... Then Manchester to the Airport... I can get the airport express both from the main road about 15 mins walk from my house... Failing that I could catch it in Warrington I believe... All seems viable and fine to me... -------------------------- If I did drive to the airport would I be happy to be charged £5 for contributing to congestion...yes Would it make me consider using the train instead....yes While where at it we should have tax on parking spaces and more tax on air travel.... Edited December 4, 2008 by oafc0000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I have got public transport to Manchester Airport many a time.... The bus has a place for large bags and so do the trains... I accept your point about the metrolink though... So you accept that in terms of public transport to the airport that changing from trains to Metrolink reduces the quality of the service. If so then why are we being asked to fund it through road congestion charging, why not leave it as it is. Your point on air travel is one I don't have a problem with as those people that are going to travel by plane will usually do so even if it cost £10 more and it would make people think about air routes which are often under used. For example I once caught a plane from Bristol to Newcastle and the pilot came on the tannoy asking people to spread out (there were only about 30 people on a plane designed for 150) so we could take-off. There are also some routes (for example London-Manchester) which are used by people commuting (not connecting to international flights) where the train is often a cheaper, quicker and more environmentally friendly service but still people fly and I feel this could be priced differently. Taxing prime city centre car parking spaces (including those that come with people's work) would be an alternative to road congestion charging I believe and this would reduce the cost and impact on those people who are not really commuting into the city centre but would still get charged under the proposed system so is a more favourable option to me. This would also please me as it would mean those in the NHS are not the only ones (I stand to be corrected) who would have to pay to park their car at work (I don't tend to drive to one hospital and park on the street at others so I don't pay but I'm not a female working nights). As to getting to the airport, if there was a better way on public transport I would use it. I think it could be feasible to have a series of buses that goes round the M60 stopping at or near to each junction and then going on to the airport. This could be a specially designed bus/coach with lots of room for suitcases and could run to a good capacity throughout the day. This would mean that people would be able to drive/walk/get a taxi/bus to their nearest M60 junction and get on a bus that takes them to the airport. Bristol has a similar bus service (stops at key spots from the airport to the city) which is quite good (it was the only time I got on it, but my brother uses it a bit- he lives there) but this is run privately by National Express. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 So you accept that in terms of public transport to the airport that changing from trains to Metrolink reduces the quality of the service. If so then why are we being asked to fund it through road congestion charging, why not leave it as it is. It depends.. If they make no provision for baggage I would question it but I would be surprised if there wasn't a area for baggage.... I doubt they will just put the normal trams on this route... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 This would also please me as it would mean those in the NHS are not the only ones (I stand to be corrected) who would have to pay to park their car at work Here's the news - many millions of people who don't work in the NHS have to pay for parking. The fact that many hospitals use some of their land to raise money is another matter altogether, but there is something quite strongly delusional about the attitudes of many in the public sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Here's the news - many millions of people who don't work in the NHS have to pay for parking. The fact that many hospitals use some of their land to raise money is another matter altogether, but there is something quite strongly delusional about the attitudes of many in the public sector. I like to be corrected as it means I learn something. I was under the impression, which you have pointed out to be wrong, that other places of employment don't charge people to park there, such as schools, offices etc.. (I knew some people have to pay to park their car but not actually in a specific car park designed soley for the use of where they work and not just a generic city centre car park). I'm not so sure who gets the money from the car parking at NHS sites as I think a lot of it is contracted out and its these companies which make the money but it wouldn't surprise me if a fair proportion goes back into the NHS coffers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I like to be corrected as it means I learn something. I was under the impression, which you have pointed out to be wrong, that other places of employment don't charge people to park there, such as schools, offices etc.. (I knew some people have to pay to park their car but not actually in a specific car park designed soley for the use of where they work and not just a generic city centre car park). I'm not so sure who gets the money from the car parking at NHS sites as I think a lot of it is contracted out and its these companies which make the money but it wouldn't surprise me if a fair proportion goes back into the NHS coffers. Well, you'll find that most private companies with enormous plots of commercially attractive land beside their office will have found a use for it other than to save their employees parking fees. Of course hospitals need parking space so that patients can visit without having to make journeys via public transport that will often not be practical, but quite why their (generally well paid) employees should grab a free ride is utterly beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Well, you'll find that most private companies with enormous plots of commercially attractive land beside their office will have found a use for it other than to save their employees parking fees. Of course hospitals need parking space so that patients can visit without having to make journeys via public transport that will often not be practical, but quite why their (generally well paid) employees should grab a free ride is utterly beyond me. Weirdly the ones who can afford to pay a bit more for the car parking- the senior doctors- are the ones who get the best spots (consultants' car parks are quite commone at hospitals). I have no problem with those that can afford to pay, paying a bit more so they can get a spot, but most of these people don't routinely work unsociable hours. However, the nurses, midwives, radiographers, health care assisstants etc. who are more often than not female (I've only ever met one male midwife) and work shifts with unsociable hours, outside standard public transport timetables, and often arrive and leave in the dark are the ones who earn the least and need car parking the most (in terms of safety) still have to pay. I think the parking for both patients and staff at NHS hospitals needs looking at to make sure that people aren't being overcharged (the cost for patients/visitors at most NHS hospitals is extortionate especially if you park for a prolonged amount of time) especially for those who work unsociable hours, considering not all the money is going back towards the NHS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Weirdly the ones who can afford to pay a bit more for the car parking- the senior doctors- are the ones who get the best spots (consultants' car parks are quite commone at hospitals). I have no problem with those that can afford to pay, paying a bit more so they can get a spot, but most of these people don't routinely work unsociable hours. However, the nurses, midwives, radiographers, health care assisstants etc. who are more often than not female (I've only ever met one male midwife) and work shifts with unsociable hours, outside standard public transport timetables, and often arrive and leave in the dark are the ones who earn the least and need car parking the most (in terms of safety) still have to pay. I think the parking for both patients and staff at NHS hospitals needs looking at to make sure that people aren't being overcharged (the cost for patients/visitors at most NHS hospitals is extortionate especially if you park for a prolonged amount of time) especially for those who work unsociable hours, considering not all the money is going back towards the NHS. Yes, and the directors and senior managers get the few parking spaces in private companies as well. If there is any space left over, they would tend to sell it or rent it out for profit. Even if some of their employees are female. Boo hoo hoo, I work in the public sector but me and my colleagues still have to sort out our own parking. You would hear around 45 million hearts breaking, if they weren't too busy working to pay for your forthcoming pension and salary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueJazzer Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) QUOTE(outoftheblue @ Dec 3 2008, 09:41 AM) When I viewed one of the new apartments at Pollard St I was told there is private parking space for 430 cars. Oh god, nay nay and a million times nay........ Its in my station area and its rough as hell. Its a dump. I dont care how many apartments they build, and how much they charge, its still bloody Ancoats. As a wise man once said, you cant polish a turd. P.S. sorry if this offends anyone who lives in the area (my nan does), just telling it how i see it, usually at 3 am....... Anyway, back to the arguement/debate...... reason for edit : i spel like a 5year old sometimes! Edited December 4, 2008 by BlueJazzer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Yes, and the directors and senior managers get the few parking spaces in private companies as well. If there is any space left over, they would tend to sell it or rent it out for profit. Even if some of their employees are female. Boo hoo hoo, I work in the public sector but me and my colleagues still have to sort out our own parking. You would hear around 45 million hearts breaking, if they weren't too busy working to pay for your forthcoming pension and salary. So, if you work in the public sector, those 45 m hearts are paying for your pension and salary too? Or if you work in the private sector, your customers pay for it, which is everybody in most cases as the private sector runs food, energy and housing and then all the other stuff that entertains. And part of what we all pay goes to the pensions and salary of the employees of the private sector. Some people have really fallen for this divide and conquer method of public / private split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Yes, and the directors and senior managers get the few parking spaces in private companies as well. If there is any space left over, they would tend to sell it or rent it out for profit. Even if some of their employees are female. Boo hoo hoo, I work in the public sector but me and my colleagues still have to sort out our own parking. You would hear around 45 million hearts breaking, if they weren't too busy working to pay for your forthcoming pension and salary. I had quite a long argument to you about this point but have decided that I would be wiser to leave it until I've slept on it, but I will say that your attitude about tax payers working hard to pay for my forthcoming salary and pension a bit surprising since tax payers are currently working hard to pay for your salary (and probably your pension as well). The parking for NHS staff could be better though in my opinion, and your opinion (which I'm happy to admit is valid) says the parking situation could be worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 So, if you work in the public sector, those 45 m hearts are paying for your pension and salary too? Or if you work in the private sector, your customers pay for it, which is everybody in most cases as the private sector runs food, energy and housing and then all the other stuff that entertains. And part of what we all pay goes to the pensions and salary of the employees of the private sector. Some people have really fallen for this divide and conquer method of public / private split. You will gather from my posts above that I can't claim to be that far from the public sector. In fact, I do the work that highly paid people who work for a large scale traffic enforcement policy aren't clever enough to do. But that's my problem. I entirely agree that there is a shrinking divide between public and private, but that is symptomatic of the problem. Fundamentally, some people pay tax, and some people receive it, and there's no two ways about it, however you think income should be distributed or how many jobs need to be funded by tax. I receive it in my current role (not directly but through a service provider). The balance can go too far, and I fear the splurge of government spending we are about to seewill tip the balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I had quite a long argument to you about this point but have decided that I would be wiser to leave it until I've slept on it, but I will say that your attitude about tax payers working hard to pay for my forthcoming salary and pension a bit surprising since tax payers are currently working hard to pay for your salary (and probably your pension as well). The parking for NHS staff could be better though in my opinion, and your opinion (which I'm happy to admit is valid) says the parking situation could be worse. I don't work for who you think - no final salary pension for me. I earn what I can get in a market situation. Doctors don't, they have a stranglehold on the NHS and they take the piss with their pay. Simple as. GPs decided that they needed a huge pay rise at the same time as they stopped doing home visits and being on call in the evening and weekends. Don't explain that to me, explain it to everyone else who is struggling to meet their bills and can't get an appointment to see Dr 100k before he heads off to watch Neighbours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejh45 Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 How come the Scottish , Welsh and Irish Assemblies have made taxpayers' money available to ensure that no hospitals in their countries are allowed to charge for car parking? And what has this to do with the congestion vote apart from more money evaporating out of my back bin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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