Tour De France

[rudemedic]

Considering we have had numerous pages dedicated to NHL I thought I'd start a topic on the Tour De France. Now I know many of you will see cycling as something you did when you weren't old enough to buy beer or something you do as its quite a quick way of getting into work if you live close enough but Cycling is more than that, and we won more gold medals in it at Beijing (on its own) than we had at some entire Olympics in modern times. That is track cycling and road, especially big tour cycling (like the Tour De France), is slightly different. This year we had our first major jersey contender in Mark Cavendish (a former world track champion) in the green 'sprinters' jersey (points won for the finishing position and for some intermediatye short sprints along the route) who is quite clearly the best sprinter but has been robbed by the refs (or commisaires as they prefer to be known) and despite winning 4 stages looks like will narrowly miss out on the first major Jersey to be won by a Brit in 24 years. More surprisingly, however, is the performance of Bradley Wiggins CBE in the overall event (for time as opposed to average position). Those of you who watched the cycling at the past 3 Olympics might remember Mr. Wiggins, he won bronze in Sydney; Gold, Silver and Bronze in Athens and 2 Golds in Beijing (mainly in the individual pursuit- the same event as Chris Boardman). Bradley Wiggins today (the tour de France is having a rest day) lies third overall, 1min 40 sec behind the race leader (and future sport great- Alberto Contador). He is less than 10 sec behind the legend of the sport Lance Armstrong and judging by yesterday's finish will catch that up tomorrow, leaving him second.

 

Yesterday the riders having rode the distance between Manchester and Newcastle then rode up the equivalent of Ben Nevis to the ski resort of Verbier in switzerland. Bradley Wiggins was up with the contenders for all of the race and whilst Alberto Contador went off in front, Wiggins came in fourth on the stage to move him up to third overall. With a time trial to come (easily Wiggin's best bit), the 1min40sec lead Contador has might not be enough. In this summer without a world cup and an Olympics it is definately worth checking out the highlights of every stage on ITV4 at 7pm daily for the next week (today's will be a recap so will be worth watching to catch up on events). We have a genuine shot at some British success in this world reknowned event and that is something always worth watching, and if something was to happen to Contador he would be in with an amazing shout of being the first Britain to win the fabled Yellow Jersey.

[Hometownclub]

I'm a keen cyclist myself and absolutely love watching the Tour de France both on Eurosport at the weekend and on ITV4 during the week.

 

It's always an entertaining and intrigueing battle not only for the GC but for the points and Mountains Jerseys as well.

 

I think Alberto Contador has really shown himself to be the best climber in the field and the strongest man, I don't see anyone getting near him on GC.

 

Wiggins has done brilliant and has an excellent chance of a podium finish, he will be thinking he can overtake Armstrong who doesn't look the same force as he once was (not surprising really at 37).

 

Wiggins puts his improved climbing down to his weight loss, he does look very lean and he says he has lost about 5 kgs since the Giro.

 

Wiggins is a very good time trialer but so is Contador and even if Wiggins took time out of Contador in the TT, I think Contador could take more time out of the whole field in the Alpine stages especially up Mont Ventou if required.

 

Cavendish has been very unlucky in his bid for the Green Jersey, clearly the fastest sprinter in the race with 4 stage wins already, he was unlucky to be placed last when disqualified the other day and that has put paid to his chances, a reversal of the places between Cavendish and Thor Hushovd would have been a much fairer outcome, I think he has just too many points to make up on Hushovd now.

 

He will I'm sure still win the final prestigeous stage on the Champs Elysees barring accidents as they always finish in a bunch in Paris and breakaways are rarely ever allowed to succeed on the final day.

 

So from a British point of view it could be a most successful Tour, with Wiggins a good shout for a podium finish (although I think Andy Schleck will attack him in the mountain stages). Schleck is not such a good TT so Wiggins should gain time over him there and Cavendish already having won 4 Stages, with for me at least one more to come.

 

 

[leeslover]

Wiggins is benefitting from the huge reduction in doping - although he has certainly got better, is leaner and trained more for the longer event, it's also the case that the rest of the pack is coming back towards him and the other clean riders. Him and Cavendish have both done fantastically well, if an all British team is set up as they have talked about it could be a serious force - the only problem maybe being that we have a lot of sprinters and short course riders and maybe not enough quality distance men to do the leg work?

[dave_ragg1984]

Wiggins is benefitting from the huge reduction in doping - although he has certainly got better, is leaner and trained more for the longer event, it's also the case that the rest of the pack is coming back towards him and the other clean riders. Him and Cavendish have both done fantastically well, if an all British team is set up as they have talked about it could be a serious force - the only problem maybe being that we have a lot of sprinters and short course riders and maybe not enough quality distance men to do the leg work?

 

I don't think Wiggins and Cav would leave their teams to sign up for a British team.

Edited July 20, 2009 by dave_ragg1984

[leeslover]

I don't think Wiggins and Cav would leave their teams to sign up for a British team.

There's been a lot of turmoil (obviously) in cycling recently, and so much expertise there in the GB camp - I wouldn't rule it out. It could have huge sponsorship potential here at a time when a lot of continental countries are still wary of the sport following the doping business of recent years.

[dave_ragg1984]

There's been a lot of turmoil (obviously) in cycling recently, and so much expertise there in the GB camp - I wouldn't rule it out. It could have huge sponsorship potential here at a time when a lot of continental countries are still wary of the sport following the doping business of recent years.

 

 

I've not seen it personally, but my brother said they interviewed Cav, Wiggins and Millar on the Tour De France show on ITV, and none seemed even remotely interested. I think with the quality of riders that they are currently working with, they would have to put a really good team together to tempt them. If you were Cavendish, why would you leave Columbia. His team hardly ever fails to lead him out perfectly.

[rudemedic]

Before Sunday's stage all of Wiggins' work in the mountains was done for the help of Vande Velde (who came 5th last year and is his team's leader), it was just happenstance that Wiggin's had a better prologue and so was in front of him. Now Vande Velde is in 12th (a very good shout for a top 8 finish) but he will be working for Wiggins. Are you telling me, Wiggins, Cav, Millar, Wegalius, Geraint Thomas, Frome (I think he's called - the bloke who was riding for Kenya but was British) (both of which are absent from the tour because their team isn't French and wasn't worth a wildcard) et al. wouldn't be a decent force in the tour de France. Millar is more than good enough to lead out Cav's lead out man (who would be difficult to recruit at any rate as most decent lead out men can be the main guy for someone else - see Chiolek and Milram), Thomas is a man who I can see being very similar ot someone like Jens Voight (a powerhouse that drags themselves over the mountains but is a demon on the flat for bringing away breaks- or being in them). A team GB (plus a few others- probably someone like Nicolas Roche might be worth a shot ditto that German/aussie guy) with Wiggins as its leader/GC man would have a good sniff at doing very well in the tour (and giving Wiggins a much more high profile role in his team). Yes Wiggins et al. are saying they wouldn't leave their current teams but in the end of the day it all comes down to money and a well-backed Team GB will probably have as much money as anyone else, especially considering a lot of the sports sponsors are thinking aout pulling out. For example, Astana, Lance/Contador's team wasn't paying its backroom staff for the tour of Italy properly so the team blacked out their logo.

[OldhamSheridan]

Soooooo, I see the drug makers have got ahead of the testers again.

 

They'll catch up and nail the cheats in the end, or they'll cark it like Pantani did. Not that anyone leading the race at the moment has ever been anywhere near things like that in the past, and certainly hasn't changed himself from a pure climber to a timetrialist too. No.

 

He actually looked embarassed to be picking up the stage win of that time trial.

 

 

NB. Maybe it's years of cheats, my cycling heroes like Richard Verenque for instance, being outed has left me cycnical. But, I don't think this sport will ever clear itself up.

 

[rudemedic]

Soooooo, I see the drug makers have got ahead of the testers again.

 

They'll catch up and nail the cheats in the end, or they'll cark it like Pantani did. Not that anyone leading the race at the moment has ever been anywhere near things like that in the past, and certainly hasn't changed himself from a pure climber to a timetrialist too. No.

 

He actually looked embarassed to be picking up the stage win of that time trial.

 

 

NB. Maybe it's years of cheats, my cycling heroes like Richard Verenque for instance, being outed has left me cycnical. But, I don't think this sport will ever clear itself up.

 

Meh! Cycling will always have this reputation of a drug sport after the chaos of the late 90s/early 2000s. I read an interesting snippet in the BMJ today (it was from late June this year but I was clearing some stuff out and saw it). It appears that T-Mobile the defunct term of Ullrich, Zabel and Riis (the latter 2 now heavily involved in team management) had two doctors dope their riders with EPO (the thing to make you produce more red blood cells) and the two doctors have had some criminal proceedings bought against them in Germany. Now the interesting thing here I think is in the past few years we've had Pantani (who died as a direct result of his doping), Basso, Ullrich (this article enhances his rep for being a bit dodgy) the list goes on, but the supposedly clean seven-time winner beat them all. That reeks more than a body that's been decaying for two weeks in a septic tank. Rasmussen was leading the tour de France, but still having difficulty beating Contador on the climbs and he was thrown out for not doing drugs test (the only reson to forget more than one drugs test is so you don't want to get caught). Valverde wasn't allowed to race this year because he gets arrested if he enters Italy due to drug charges but Contador beat him handsomely, Sastre did too but I'm not sure Valverde was at his peak then. My point is a rider can change from one sort of rider to another with a bit of training (personally Contador's ability in the mountains isn't what it was two years ago)- see Laurent Jalabert- but its when 'clean' riders are beating cheats that make you think they aren't so clean.

Edited July 25, 2009 by rudemedic

[OldhamSheridan]

My problem is that it has gone from a very dirty sport continuously over a number of recent years, including a leader of the TDF and a winner (not mentioning about ten winners of the King of the Mountains over the past twelve years), has overnight become a drug-free sport. I can't think that has happened. I think it is far more likely that the drugs aren't being detected now. These things fluctuate (as I'm sure you know) between: make undetectable drug, cyclists whallop up hills like a vertical drop. Drugs become detectable, cyclists get caught.

 

Contador has gone from an average TT'er to the best in the world in a terrain totally unsuited to him upon a bit of practise (and bike change) in a bit part race in Spain. Shall we say, I'm a little dubious. The only thing against me, is that it would be totally and utterly unnecessary, unless he was cheating beforehand. You know, when all the allegations about him cheating were flying about.

 

(I'm a great fan of this sport, I mean I can think of few greater sporting moments than when Stephen Roche appeared from in the mist on La Plagne to cries of "It's Stephen Roche" from Phil Liggett behind Pedro Delgado*)

 

NB. It's had the drug sport for miles longer than the eighties. it goes back to when they used to do coke and brandy at the bottom of the big climbs in the early days. It's just got more sophistomocated.

 

*Stephen Roche behind Delgado, although Phil Liggett on a tandem with him would have been funnier.

Edited July 25, 2009 by OldhamSheridan

[rudemedic]

My problem is that it has gone from a very dirty sport continuously over a number of recent years, including a leader of the TDF and a winner (not mentioning about ten winners of the King of the Mountains over the past twelve years), has overnight become a drug-free sport. I can't think that has happened. I think it is far more likely that the drugs aren't being detected now. These things fluctuate (as I'm sure you know) between: make undetectable drug, cyclists whallop up hills like a vertical drop. Drugs become detectable, cyclists get caught.

 

Contador has gone from an average TT'er to the best in the world in a terrain totally unsuited to him upon a bit of practise (and bike change) in a bit part race in Spain. Shall we say, I'm a little dubious. The only thing against me, is that it would be totally and utterly unnecessary, unless he was cheating beforehand. You know, when all the allegations about him cheating were flying about.

 

(I'm a great fan of this sport, I mean I can think of few greater sporting moments than when Stephen Roche appeared from in the mist on La Plagne to cries of "It's Stephen Roche" from Phil Liggett behind Pedro Delgado*)

 

NB. It's had the drug sport for miles longer than the eighties. it goes back to when they used to do coke and brandy at the bottom of the big climbs in the early days. It's just got more sophistomocated.

 

*Stephen Roche behind Delgado, although Phil Liggett on a tandem with him would have been funnier.

 

Yep agree with a lot of what you said- (I would agree with the bit about Roche but that was from before my time). That's the funny thing about the tour is that everyone assumes in the old days they were clean (as opposed to being clean enough to pass a not so sophisticated drugs test) and some people moan about going back to the good old days (see this years radio ban) if we went back to the good old days properly then the best rider wouldn't win it would be the one who was most doped up (nowadays there's definately an element of the best chemist involved). Actually Delgado himself got knicked for a drugs problem back in the late 80s/early 90s- he had furosemide in his system which being a diuretic was probably really useful in getting rid of all the other stuff he had in there (as well as being really a bit counter-productive in terms of hydration).

 

I think some countries may be doubting Mr Wiggins' achievements- he has come from no where to come fourth (I wish I'd put a bet on- would be quite rich now). That in combination with our track success might make people wonder if we haven't got a pretty good chemist ourselves (especially consider Millar's previous)

[dave_ragg1984]

I think some countries may be doubting Mr Wiggins' achievements- he has come from no where to come fourth (I wish I'd put a bet on- would be quite rich now). That in combination with our track success might make people wonder if we haven't got a pretty good chemist ourselves (especially consider Millar's previous)

 

 

Hoping I'm never proved wrong but....

 

I believe Wiggins is clean. He has lost about 10 kilos in weight, but not lost much of his 4k pursuit power. Good on him. Fingers crossed he can become a great road racer. He should, barring major catastrophe, finish 4th tomorrow. That would be joint highest for a brit ever.