leeslover Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Discuss, in terms of proposed development, external funding, and anything else pertinent. Me, not sure. Singe, feel free to add polls as and when appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeylandLatic Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Discuss, in terms of proposed development, external funding, and anything else pertinent. Me, not sure. Singe, feel free to add polls as and when appropriate. I disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Discuss No thanks. I prefer the shot putt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razza699 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) Discuss, in terms of proposed development, external funding, and anything else pertinent. Me, not sure. Singe, feel free to add polls as and when appropriate. are you fishing for a reaction off certain members? Edited September 10, 2009 by razza699 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAFCMIKE Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 are you fishing for a reaction off certain members? I think TTA would admit that when they took over in 2003 the plans were for Premier League football in a 25,000 stadium. The six years that have followed have opened their eyes a bit and it's been scaled down. They would probably say they over-estimated the club's potential. Others might say poor choice of managers has contributed to the situation we are currently in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeckfordsRightFoot Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 A point for debate?! Are you serious?! Here's the answer. NO!!!! /END THREAD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeckfordsRightFoot Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 are you fishing for a reaction off certain members? Oh look. Razza edited another post. Surprise surprise. He changes them to suit what other people are saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Discuss, in terms of proposed development, external funding, and anything else pertinent. Me, not sure. Singe, feel free to add polls as and when appropriate. 41 % of me thinks: No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, YES! 39% of me thinks: Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, NO! 67% of me thinks: Undecided Though I do believe that had the hand baggage restrictions on aircraft not come into force, we would have been in the Premiership now with a 67,000 Seater stadium floating in the sky. Though this obviously would have created problems with some of the supporters who felt that this would have been moving away from our heartland of the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creepy Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 i dont think they ever had Premiership football in mind the plan was Championship football in 5 years (remember the master plan) TTA have spent quite a bit on the playing side, apart from this season (but we need more) i think its a case of poor management appointments why we are still in this league Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 i dont think they ever had Premiership football in mind the plan was Championship football in 5 years (remember the master plan) TTA have spent quite a bit on the playing side, apart from this season (but we need more) i think its a case of poor management appointments why we are still in this league question.. do you think TTA have been found out in terms of the "5 year plan" in regards to them thinking they could do it on a shoestring?cause lets be honest,they haven't spent "serious" amounts on the squad. its a two way street...you can get the right personnel in (in what i mean by a scouting system,which IMO is pretty poor at latics) and reap the benefits a la scunthorpe...ok .its a time thing,but the dividends pays in the end. ...or you can get the right product on the pitch by spending that extra for proven talent. in the end is that same old formula...success on the pitch + bums on seats = more revenue. speculate to accumulate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creepy Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 question.. do you think TTA have been found out in terms of the "5 year plan" in regards to them thinking they could do it on a shoestring?cause lets be honest,they haven't spent "serious" amounts on the squad. its a two way street...you can get the right personnel in (in what i mean by a scouting system,which IMO is pretty poor at latics) and reap the benefits a la scunthorpe...ok .its a time thing,but the dividends pays in the end. ...or you can get the right product on the pitch by spending that extra for proven talent. in the end is that same old formula...success on the pitch + bums on seats = more revenue. speculate to accumulate. personally i think TTA have give up, i think they were very naive in thinking we would get promoted with the money they had in mind (to spend on players) when they first came like you say they havent spent serious amounts and we need more like you say success on the pitch means bums on seats, and i truely believe the fans will come flocking back if we are playing in the championship, more spent on the team, will mean more revenue obviously not on the scale of Chris Moore, but its a no brainer to spend more to earn more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 personally i think TTA have give up, i think they were very naive in thinking we would get promoted with the money they had in mind (to spend on players) when they first came like you say they havent spent serious amounts and we need more like you say success on the pitch means bums on seats, and i truely believe the fans will come flocking back if we are playing in the championship, more spent on the team, will mean more revenue obviously not on the scale of Chris Moore, but its a no brainer to spend more to earn more Nah, better to have an astro-turf football pitch which will start showing a return, eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razza699 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Oh look. Razza edited another post. Surprise surprise. He changes them to suit what other people are saying. Your sounding more and more bitter as the days go on pal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) personally i think TTA have give up, i think they were very naive in thinking we would get promoted with the money they had in mind (to spend on players) when they first came like you say they havent spent serious amounts and we need more like you say success on the pitch means bums on seats, and i truely believe the fans will come flocking back if we are playing in the championship, more spent on the team, will mean more revenue obviously not on the scale of Chris Moore, but its a no brainer to spend more to earn more But if you use this season as an example, TTA would have to spend as much or even far more than what Chris Moore spent to realistically compete financially with the big clubs in this division. As for giving up, they still fund the clubs losses so if their version of giving up is that, its still far more than any of the fans can do. Edited September 10, 2009 by jimsleftfoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 As for giving up, they still fund the clubs losses so if their version of giving up is that, its still far more than any of the fans can do. but isn't their current annual losses going to all wiped out when they finally get rid of latics to failsworth,sell their investment in the land they have purchased and ride off into the sunset..with profit? and thats the point...what are they really in it for...latics or themselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creepy Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 But if you use this season as an example, TTA would have to spend as much or even far more than what Chris Moore spent to realistically compete financially with the big clubs in this division. As for giving up, they still fund the clubs losses so if their version of giving up is that, its still far more than any of the fans can do. yeah its a funny league this league this year, you will have to spend a lot (like Huddersfield) to compete in this league, but im not just talking about this year. and TTA will fund our losses, because they will get it all back and more once Failsworth is built and they sell the club TTA can see ££££ signs, im hoping they say sod it we are selling the club soon lets spend some money and have a really good go at getting promotion - but i cant see it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 In terms of the inner workings of football finance I'd definitely say TTA were green when they came in. Here's how I see it. TTA's ambitions and motives were twofold. Firstly, on a simplistic level, they were realising the dreams they had as younger football fans of one day running a football club together. Secondly, as businessmen, they wanted to test their business acumen in the football arena and try out a business model that was different to the tradition within football - above all, to invest in redevelopment of facilities to provide 365 day income streams to make the club a viable self-supporting business, ideally generating enough income to take the football club forward without the need for continued cash injections from the owners. It's no secret (I don't think) that their original plans were modelled on Hull's. Remember, Plan A was a new stadium development (with the extra commercial elements to provide income) of 20k+ seats. Looking back, it's difficult to argue with the ambition they showed for the club. Harsh financial realities have since intervened, to the extent that I believe such ambitions are little more than a distant aspiration; the Failsworth project is a distant and very poor relation to those ambitions of 2004. I know much less about Chris Moore's ambitions for the club. They certainly didn't appear to be anywhere near as coherent as TTA's; he invested purely in the football squad with nothing spent on infrastructure and to my knowledge no plans to do so; maybe we'd have seen other things come to fruition if - once again - harsh financial realities hadn't intervened to curtail his ownership and he'd got us up into the Championship. Looking back further still, it seems a shame that in our glory days of the early 90s our owners seemed to lack the ambition to kick on and establish us amongst the new elite. If TTA had been around then, would they have done better? Or is that just because my memory of our owners and board then has been clouded by the intervening years of decline. So are we ambitious enough in how we are run? We've had three false starts in the last 20 years, one arguably killed off by a lack of ambition and foresight, the next two killed off by the increasingly harsh financial realities of lower league football. Sad to say, I think TTA's ambitions for the club have been eroded beyond the point of no return. I was optimistic for their vision in the early years of a new stadium at Ferney Fields and then the (full scale) redevelopment of Boundary Park, because I could see the commercial benefits of new income streams taking us to a new, sustainable level. I see nothing in the Failsworth plan to give me that hope, at best all I see is the same four thousand or so watching the same standard of football in slightly nicer surroundings. What if the decline continues at Failsworth and we end up in the professional basement? By then, BP will be nothing more than our history and a few photos of what it was like before they built 1000 homes on the land. It's a move that we cannot return from, and for that to even begin to be worthwhile I want to see it as a move that will take us forward. Instead of investing everything in a lower league "community" project at Failsworth, I'm now convinced TTA should be pulling out all the stops to look for the alternative. To me, that is incoming investment - either by way of joining the board or outright takeover - that plugs the financial gap that the recession created in our BP redevelopment plan. That would set us up for all possibilities in the future, instead of hurling us down a blind alley from which there is no return. Granted there are no certainties - the rumoured involvement of John Wardle showed TTA were at least open to the idea of new investment, and even with renewed efforts in that direction there is no guarantee the investment would be found. But I think I'd rather see us survive - on a lower budget if necessary - at a rundown BP for the next few years whilst searching for that investment than abandon all hope and move to Failsworth. (Just a final note of clarification on my view, as previously expressed - the fact it is Failsworth rather than any other site in Oldham with the same overall plan is absolutely irrelevent to me. As far as I'm concerned that particular site is not a negative in itself, although I'll accept it doesn't have many positives either.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 i agree on every word garcon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 P.S. I think I just heard the Corporal shout "Hallelujah!" And I'm in Bristol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
De_La_Vega Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 My two-penneth... TTA came into the club with, as has been stated elsewhere, a bit of a blaze of publicity and obviously a lot of new-fangled ideas. The signing of Davies for a significant outlay was a statement of intent, and I can't really complain about the squads that have been built up on the budgets that they have approved. However, I think that TTA have always been interested in the financial side of the game more than anything else - from the off Boundary Park has been central to their plans and given what has been said surrounding the Failsworth site it sounds more and more like their involvement was pre-supposed on making a profit from the land value. To be fair if I was them then I'd have been miffed by the amount of resisitance that interest groups within the Oldham area have put up; Clayton playing fields, planning permission et al... All strikes me that they have lost interest, and I can't really blame them. That said though, we have had 2 excellent opportunities to get out of this division that we have fouled up through bad management or player issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostofcecere Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 In terms of the inner workings of football finance I'd definitely say TTA were green when they came in. Here's how I see it. TTA's ambitions and motives were twofold. Firstly, on a simplistic level, they were realising the dreams they had as younger football fans of one day running a football club together. Secondly, as businessmen, they wanted to test their business acumen in the football arena and try out a business model that was different to the tradition within football - above all, to invest in redevelopment of facilities to provide 365 day income streams to make the club a viable self-supporting business, ideally generating enough income to take the football club forward without the need for continued cash injections from the owners. It's no secret (I don't think) that their original plans were modelled on Hull's. Remember, Plan A was a new stadium development (with the extra commercial elements to provide income) of 20k+ seats. Looking back, it's difficult to argue with the ambition they showed for the club. Harsh financial realities have since intervened, to the extent that I believe such ambitions are little more than a distant aspiration; the Failsworth project is a distant and very poor relation to those ambitions of 2004. I know much less about Chris Moore's ambitions for the club. They certainly didn't appear to be anywhere near as coherent as TTA's; he invested purely in the football squad with nothing spent on infrastructure and to my knowledge no plans to do so; maybe we'd have seen other things come to fruition if - once again - harsh financial realities hadn't intervened to curtail his ownership and he'd got us up into the Championship. Looking back further still, it seems a shame that in our glory days of the early 90s our owners seemed to lack the ambition to kick on and establish us amongst the new elite. If TTA had been around then, would they have done better? Or is that just because my memory of our owners and board then has been clouded by the intervening years of decline. So are we ambitious enough in how we are run? We've had three false starts in the last 20 years, one arguably killed off by a lack of ambition and foresight, the next two killed off by the increasingly harsh financial realities of lower league football. Sad to say, I think TTA's ambitions for the club have been eroded beyond the point of no return. I was optimistic for their vision in the early years of a new stadium at Ferney Fields and then the (full scale) redevelopment of Boundary Park, because I could see the commercial benefits of new income streams taking us to a new, sustainable level. I see nothing in the Failsworth plan to give me that hope, at best all I see is the same four thousand or so watching the same standard of football in slightly nicer surroundings. What if the decline continues at Failsworth and we end up in the professional basement? By then, BP will be nothing more than our history and a few photos of what it was like before they built 1000 homes on the land. It's a move that we cannot return from, and for that to even begin to be worthwhile I want to see it as a move that will take us forward. Instead of investing everything in a lower league "community" project at Failsworth, I'm now convinced TTA should be pulling out all the stops to look for the alternative. To me, that is incoming investment - either by way of joining the board or outright takeover - that plugs the financial gap that the recession created in our BP redevelopment plan. That would set us up for all possibilities in the future, instead of hurling us down a blind alley from which there is no return. Granted there are no certainties - the rumoured involvement of John Wardle showed TTA were at least open to the idea of new investment, and even with renewed efforts in that direction there is no guarantee the investment would be found. But I think I'd rather see us survive - on a lower budget if necessary - at a rundown BP for the next few years whilst searching for that investment than abandon all hope and move to Failsworth. (Just a final note of clarification on my view, as previously expressed - the fact it is Failsworth rather than any other site in Oldham with the same overall plan is absolutely irrelevent to me. As far as I'm concerned that particular site is not a negative in itself, although I'll accept it doesn't have many positives either.) Excellent post with which I'm pretty much in agreement with, except that I've still not made up my mind totally about the whole Failsworth project. And just to add, the Chris Moore business plan centered around spending to get the club into The Championship where the now defunct ITV Digital were throwing money around almost on the same scale that Sky were at the time for The Premier League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 P.S. I think I just heard the Corporal shout "Hallelujah!" And I'm in Bristol. It was me you heard, Garcon. It was me. And I was in Leeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Instead of investing everything in a lower league "community" project at Failsworth, I'm now convinced TTA should be pulling out all the stops to look for the alternative. To me, that is incoming investment - either by way of joining the board or outright takeover - that plugs the financial gap that the recession created in our BP redevelopment plan. That would set us up for all possibilities in the future, instead of hurling us down a blind alley from which there is no return. I said as much a few weeks back and was mocked by all those who happily eat the :censored: that they are spoon fed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I said as much a few weeks back and was mocked by all those who happily eat the :censored: that they are spoon fed. Though just because a few people agree, doesn’t mean that it’s suddenly the truth you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Though just because a few people agree, doesn’t mean that it’s suddenly the truth you know. Of course, just as people agreeing with what Simon Blitz said the other day doesn't make it true. It's just encouraging to see more people realising this move will be, in all probability, a disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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