Alec1954 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Man Evenming News reports that Hyde United have been wound up with debts of £120k. I wonder where this leaves Latics with their use of the ground for the Development Squad (AKA Stiffs)? Also Rochdale have wind up order issued despite them saying they have paid up their debts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky_Latic Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Also Rochdale have wind up order issued despite them saying they have paid up their debts. http://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/page/NewsDeta...1806260,00.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Times are hard so the HMRC starts to hit harder, refusing new agreements and going back on old ones. Hyde Utd board are looking at whether they can appeal the decision, having believed they had produced sufficient evidence of being able to meet the payment plan. I'm not a legal expert but I would think the outlook is not good. So, Farsley and Hyde so far ... how many more this season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) It REALLY annoys me when busineses do not keep up there payments to HMRC... When you consider you only pay HMRC when you make profits there is no excuses for the money that is due to HMRC to just disappear. Its simply a case of people spending other peoples money. HMRC should wind up 90% of the football clubs in this country... Edited September 24, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daznathe Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 is that true? i didnt think any football club made a profit, except the obvious few Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) is that true? i didnt think any football club made a profit, except the obvious few Pretty much... You only pay corporation tax on profits... What else would you be paying HMRC ? Lets look at it... Employees national insurance.... The income tax from you employees... Employers national insurance... None of it is money the club owns... VAT payments... Think of anything...and it simply is not their money... Its simply a case of not managing you cash flow and then finally spending money which is not actually yours...and hence why HMRC kick off... Edited September 24, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 It REALLY annoys me when busineses do not keep up there payments to HMRC... When you consider you only pay HMRC when you make profits there is no excuses for the money that is due to HMRC to just disappear. Its simply a case of people spending other peoples money. HMRC should wind up 90% of the football clubs in this country... I thought you were supposed to be a businessman? The bit in bold is outright nonsense. Do you honestly think clubs like Hyde and Farsley are/were making a profit? Thanks to the completely f*cked up way our sport is financed in this country it is a constant struggle for 90% of lower/non-league clubs to survive. They invariably rely on long term agreements with their creditors - including HMRC - just to keep operating costs manageable. It's when HMRC decide to rescind such agreements and squeeze every last pip that the problems start. Are you really so callous that you honestly believe all those clubs should be wound up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) I thought you were supposed to be a businessman? The bit in bold is outright nonsense. Do you honestly think clubs like Hyde and Farsley are/were making a profit? Thanks to the completely f*cked up way our sport is financed in this country it is a constant struggle for 90% of lower/non-league clubs to survive. They invariably rely on long term agreements with their creditors - including HMRC - just to keep operating costs manageable. It's when HMRC decide to rescind such agreements and squeeze every last pip that the problems start. You miss my other post ? It was a slight slip of the tongue... I personally would never run a company the way some of these clubs are ran... The live beyond there means and then need bailing out... Edited September 24, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 You miss my other post ? I did. You're still talking crap though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I personally would never run a company the way some of these clubs are ran... The live beyond there means and then need bailing out... I'd love to see you trying to run a non-league football club. Or any other real business for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Are you really so callous that you honestly believe all those clubs should be wound up? Why should they get better treatment than any other business or individual ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I did. You're still talking crap though. but im not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Why should they get better treatment than any other business or individual ? You really are the complete unreconstructed Thatcher's child aren't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 You really are the complete unreconstructed Thatcher's child aren't you? Explain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Explain... You suggest a football club is just a business, that it should either make a profit or disappear. So, presumably to you, the community contribution of that club means absolutely nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) You suggest a football club is just a business, that it should either make a profit or disappear. So, presumably to you, the community contribution of that club means absolutely nothing. I refer you to the customer of supporter thread from a few months back... It seems in some arguments I am a supporter / fan...in other arguments I am nothing but a customer and I have no power... From a legal sense and certainly from HMRC point of view...it is a business and I am a customer... My personal belief's dont come into it... I know plenty of companies that contribute to the community they operate in... Edited September 24, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 But would you, as a hypothetical customer of Hyde United, be willing to pay the increased prices on the gate, at the pie stand and in the club shop, if the club were to set them at a level that would theoretically see enough income to pay HMRC in full week by week, month by month and quarter by quarter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) But would you, as a hypothetical customer of Hyde United, be willing to pay the increased prices on the gate, at the pie stand and in the club shop, if the club were to set them at a level that would theoretically see enough income to pay HMRC in full week by week, month by month and quarter by quarter? I would suggest if you cant pay your liabilities quarter to quarter your probably haven't got a viable business... Oh look...90% of the football league... You need to at least manage your cash flow to allow you to pay up... I would rather football clubs not be ran as business... but if you do... you have to run them towards making a profit / breaking even and paying your liabilities... Edited September 24, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Eureka. 90% of football clubs from League One downwards (and quite a few above that) are not viable businesses. That's an indisuptable truth that should be the eternal shame of the Premier League, the Football League and in particular the FA. No club will unilaterally decide to operate within its means because that would be competitive - and therefore financial - suicide. Clubs find themselves in the vicious circle of having to spend more than they have simply to try and maintain their existing income - cut that expenditure and they go down and income drops even further below their base outlay. The football authorities have had the opportunities to try and address this problem but have consistently failed to meet such a basic responsibility. Then while one arm of Government is criticising the FA for its failures, another arm is grasping taxes with ever more urgency in a desperate attempt to throw cash into the gargantuan financial black hole it has created in the country's finances, with less and less care for the consequences. Let's face it, this Government is the very last organisation that should be lecturing and penalising anyone for not living within their means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) Eureka. 90% of football clubs from League One downwards (and quite a few above that) are not viable businesses. That's an indisuptable truth that should be the eternal shame of the Premier League, the Football League and in particular the FA. No club will unilaterally decide to operate within its means because that would be competitive - and therefore financial - suicide. Clubs find themselves in the vicious circle of having to spend more than they have simply to try and maintain their existing income - cut that expenditure and they go down and income drops even further below their base outlay. The football authorities have had the opportunities to try and address this problem but have consistently failed to meet such a basic responsibility. Then while one arm of Government is criticising the FA for its failures, another arm is grasping taxes with ever more urgency in a desperate attempt to throw cash into the gargantuan financial black hole it has created in the country's finances, with less and less care for the consequences. Let's face it, this Government is the very last organisation that should be lecturing and penalising anyone for not living within their means. I agree with every word... I still do not think that give justification for people running football club to not pay the taxes which are due though... Edited September 24, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daznathe Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 i dont get this atall, if 90% of clubs including us dont make a profit, why do we have a tax bill? im going to decide that you have to pay hmrc even if you dont make a profit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) i dont get this atall, if 90% of clubs including us dont make a profit, why do we have a tax bill? im going to decide that you have to pay hmrc even if you dont make a profit I mislead you a bit sorry... A company pays corporation tax on profits... But it will also pay the following to the HMRC in most cases regardless of profit: VAT Employers and Employee national insurance Income Tax for its employees here are some others as well...but VAT is the one that messes up most clubs it seems... The clubs collect VAT from their customers but then for example will choose to use that money to buy more product, pay bills etc... They miss VAT payment dates in the hope that one day they will have enough cash to meet their VAT bill demands. When a company starts off its a hard...as you have to be clever with your cash flow... As a company gets bigger / has been trading for longer you would expect them to start to move to a situation where they are meeting their liabilities is easily... In the case of football clubs who have been operating for very long periods they are still spending money they should be paying the HMRC as their business is not actually viable... Eventually the bills get so big that HMRC lose there temper and wind them up or at least threaten to.... Thats the basics anyway.... They arent viable business.... They never will be until they stop paying stupid salaries.. Edited September 24, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Pretty much... You only pay corporation tax on profits... What else would you be paying HMRC ? Lets look at it... Employees national insurance.... The income tax from you employees... Employers national insurance... None of it is money the club owns... VAT payments... Think of anything...and it simply is not their money... Its simply a case of not managing you cash flow and then finally spending money which is not actually yours...and hence why HMRC kick off... Daznathe, this post sums it up. The only outright profit related tax is Corporation Tax. The rest is based either on staff salaries or VAT % on sold goods. In a well run business operating for (and at) a profit, you put aside the necessary amount of cashflow so that you can afford: 1. Gross PAYE demands per week and/or month (i.e. staff net salary, plus employee NI contributions, plus employee Income Tax plus Employer's NI contributions) 2. VAT payments per quarter, based on goods sold. The problems start when employees' wages are an unmanageable proportion of overall income (as is the case in almost any football club) and/or goods are sold with such tight profit margins that VAT payments eradicate any profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daznathe Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 thank you. in the breakaway football league that i invented which has no clubs in it, VAT payments would be strictly monitered. so now we have four rules (on top of existing game regulations) pay vat on time backpass rule outlawed, but minimum of three teammates must touch the ball before keeper can pick up again or ball must cross halfway line handball is handball at least 10% of ground must be standing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Strewth, go for an afternoon jog - come back and the forum has been turned into the Money Box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.