Corporal_Jones Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) Does a football club exist beyond its current owners and club property? In the Simon Corney radio interview thread, I say,'The only self-sufficient club that springs immediately to mind is Manchester City-and that's due to their ownership structure and the extraordinary wealth of their owners.' This is true in the sense that the owners now possess the club, lock, stock and barrel, with everybody else being a club employee, right down from Emmanuel Adebayor and Robinho to the groundsmen and the foreign students who sell pints and pies in the COMS bars, and transient employees at that. ADUG are now, in essence, MCFC. The club is self-sufficient in that when money is required for something it will simply be forthcoming from the pockets of the owners, with whatever profit that might be generated by the club's activities only reinforcing that wealth. They are possibly the only club in the world that currently does not have to watch its spending. Apart from at a small handful of clubs, ownership structures are not particularly broad-based, and the above point about club employees and club property applies across the board, no matter how rich or poor the club. What, therefore, is a football club? Is the idea that players, fans, local community and tradition etc etc are the essence of a club anything more than mere sentiment? Are we not essentially powerless consumers, and self-deluding ones at that? Edited October 1, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Firstly, to reply to Corneys statement, in what way are city self sufficient? The current wage structure of the club is completely reliant on the financial input of a wealthy benefactor. Without him they would not have signed the players they had. A self sufficient club in my opinion was Manchester United (pre glaziers), still managed to spend a fair whack but still turned over a profit year after year, and were not reliant on the financial input of a wealthy benefactor to make such signings. A self sufficient club may still have to watch its spendings, but it is not reliant on the financial input of others like we are now, to keep it afloat. Now to the question at hand, what is a football club? I think these days, the cold hearted answer to that is simply 'a business', in competition with other clubs for paying punters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) Firstly, to reply to Corneys statement, in what way are city self sufficient? The current wage structure of the club is completely reliant on the financial input of a wealthy benefactor. Without him they would not have signed the players they had. A self sufficient club in my opinion was Manchester United (pre glaziers), still managed to spend a fair whack but still turned over a profit year after year, and were not reliant on the financial input of a wealthy benefactor to make such signings. A self sufficient club may still have to watch its spendings, but it is not reliant on the financial input of others like we are now, to keep it afloat. Now to the question at hand, what is a football club? I think these days, the cold hearted answer to that is simply 'a business', in competition with other clubs for paying punters. They are self-sufficient in that, as I said, the owners ARE the club. There is no 'City', any more than there is a 'Manyoo' or 'Latics.' These are just abstract concepts. Edited October 1, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 They are self-sufficient in that, as I said, the owners ARE the club. There is no 'City', any more than there is a 'Manyoo' or 'Latics.' These are just abstract concepts. Man City is either a legal entity or part of a legal entity. Unless the Sheik is acting as a soletrader then they are either a business or part of a business. If that business has greater losses then profits, it’s not self sufficient. Quite similar to Latics really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martjs Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 There you go again Corp, hijacking someone else's thread... Oh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) The only fully self sufficient club I know of is Droylsden where owner Dave Pace is also the manager, and a great job he has made of it too. He has also developed the ground to Conference standards with a new stand and excellent clubhouse. Edited October 1, 2009 by BP1960 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoytonBlueLad Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 The only fully self sufficient club I know of is Droylsden where owner Dave Pace is also the manager, and a great job he has made of it too. He has also developed the ground to Conference standards with a new stand and excellent clubhouse. Has he not thrown himself off the nearest bridge then yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Has he not thrown himself off the nearest bridge then yet? I think he decided it was just best not to field ineligible players instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoytonBlueLad Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I think he decided it was just best not to field ineligible players instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I started a similar thread about a year ago I think on the same subject matter... Look it up, I think it had some good responses.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOAFC Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 There a few clubs which are self sufficent. I think hereford are one of these few? they currently was not so long ago but i am not to sure now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 Man City is either a legal entity or part of a legal entity. Unless the Sheik is acting as a soletrader then they are either a business or part of a business. If that business has greater losses then profits, it’s not self sufficient. Quite similar to Latics really. Does it matter that a club is a legal entity when only the legal owners-however narrowly or broadly spread-have a say in what happens? What consitutes a club beyond the fact of ownership and the property owners control? As I ask in the OP, is there anything beyond this, or is it an abstract concept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 Furthermore, even if a club is a seperate legal entity from its owners, the wealth of those owners obviously counts for everything when a club runs at a loss. It is clearly less of a problem if City make a loss than when Latics make a loss, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latics_Fanatic Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 A football club is a lub that has players and a mangement team to play football. alright corp ladd! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 A football club is a lub that has players and a mangement team to play football. alright corp ladd! Yes-and, as I said, the managers and players are transient employees of club owners. And often, epecially in the case of players in these days of crazy money at the top and the revolving door loan policy at our level, increasingly uncommitted to a particular club. I was looking more at the kind of claims for tradition, community and so on. How real is all this? Is it just sentiment with little or no substance in agame where all power is on the side of club owners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeylandLatic Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Does a football club exist beyond its current owners and club property? In the Simon Corney radio interview thread, I say,'The only self-sufficient club that springs immediately to mind is Manchester City-and that's due to their ownership structure and the extraordinary wealth of their owners.' This is true in the sense that the owners now possess the club, lock, stock and barrel, with everybody else being a club employee, right down from Emmanuel Adebayor and Robinho to the groundsmen and the foreign students who sell pints and pies in the COMS bars, and transient employees at that. ADUG are now, in essence, MCFC. The club is self-sufficient in that when money is required for something it will simply be forthcoming from the pockets of the owners, with whatever profit that might be generated by the club's activities only reinforcing that wealth. They are possibly the only club in the world that currently does not have to watch its spending. Apart from at a small handful of clubs, ownership structures are not particularly broad-based, and the above point about club employees and club property applies across the board, no matter how rich or poor the club. What, therefore, is a football club? Is the idea that players, fans, local community and tradition etc etc are the essence of a club anything more than mere sentiment? Are we not essentially powerless consumers, and self-deluding ones at that? Gone a little Ernest Renan on us here Corp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 Gone a little Ernest Renan on us here Corp. Does he sit in the Main Stand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeylandLatic Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Does he sit in the Main Stand? Nah, he's the guy who shouts 'zigga zagga' in the RRE, we call him 'E-dog'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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