Latics' Problem

[Ackey]

For the avoidance of doubt, my 'stayaway' definition is:

Someone who used to go to BP, and has the finance and time, but no longer the inclination, to go or to put money into the Club to help it survive, yet claims to be a Latics supporter, is a stayaway.

But this comes back to my complaint that that's me... I still go once or twice.

 

But there are many times where on a Saturday afternoon I choose to pay £20 to rent a mountain bike or see a movie or go to the pub or get a meal or go to the park... I have the time and money (not always, but sometimes) but not the inclination and so I stay away.

 

So would you deem me not a supporter? Or do I not fit into your black and white assessment?

[Stevie_J]

But this comes back to my complaint that that's me... I still go once or twice.

 

But there are many times where on a Saturday afternoon I choose to pay £20 to rent a mountain bike or see a movie or go to the pub or get a meal or go to the park... I have the time and money (not always, but sometimes) but not the inclination and so I stay away.

 

So would you deem me not a supporter? Or do I not fit into your black and white assessment?

Isn't this all moving well away from the actual point now? Crystallising what Terry defines as a 'stayaway' really has no significance. It's the inferred claim that these people as good as revel in strangling the club they claim to support that really warrants discussion. This, of course, is bollocks. People, as has been set out already in this thread, may have the time and the money to attend but choose not to; not to spite the club; not because they don't class themselves as a supporter any more; but because what's on offer at BP struggles to match up to other options.

 

Football is business and it dug its own grave on that front - particularly Latics - and the romantic view that supporters should have an unwavering desire to attend whatever the weather, which Corney has a tendency to allude to, is cloud cuckoo and won't get us anywhere.

[Ackey]

Isn't this all moving well away from the actual point now? Crystallising what Terry defines as a 'stayaway' really has no significance. It's the inferred claim that these people as good as revel in strangling the club they claim to support that really warrants discussion. This, of course, is bollocks. People, as has been set out already in this thread, may have the time and the money to attend but choose not to; not to spite the club; not because they don't class themselves as a supporter any more; but because what's on offer at BP struggles to match up to other options.

 

Football is business and it dug its own grave on that front - particularly Latics - and the romantic view that supporters should have an unwavering desire to attend whatever the weather, which Corney has a tendency to allude to, is cloud cuckoo and won't get us anywhere.

A million miles away Steve. Just gets my back up when people dictate to me what or who I am based on their arbitrary idea of what is and isn't a supporter.

 

My original point was more to highlight that one PL game will earn United what a season of 8,200 people paying £23 each (for 23 games) would earn Latics and that's their problem - they can't win with odds stacked that far against them.

 

And that whilst I don't hat ol' Red Nose as most do on here he comes across as a right arse when moaning about that!

[RobOAFC]

Regarding the point about 92 professional clubs and more in the conference is missing the point to an extent...

 

Its not really about how many clubs exist, its about how many clubs have a even a remote possibility of being successful. Every fan, at every club has a dream there side will do well. What keeps you coming every weekend (amongst other factor granted) is the dream that you could do it. You could have a pinch me season. As each year passes that dream is ended for more and more clubs. The dream moves further and further away. The top cements its position at the cost of the other clubs. I believe in reality we probably have about 40 or so clubs in the entire football league who have a chance of the dream and it has been ended for the rest. Without the dream then you find it hard to come.

Oldham Athletic will always be around in some form, so will Rochdale, Bury etc... But will they be around in a form that matters anything to anyone ? We are fast heading towards a similar structure you see in Spain / Italy etc where you have the main League and the rest is nothing more than making up the numbers.

 

For me that is the crunch... and it wouldn't take the world to reopen the dream to the football league with even the remotest amount of fair play brought back in footballs structure.

 

Anyway, just the way I see things...

Disagree there. From my view, all 92 clubs still have the chance of the dream. Every so often, one of them pops up, such as Blackpool, Swansea etc, who would of thought that they would reach the premier league? In 2000 Blackpool had just been relegated to the 4th division, ten years later they was in the Premier league. Swansea end of the 02/03 season, just survived.. 9 years later they are in the premier legue.. The dream is still there for all 92 clubs.. Some may have more of a chance due to a 'sugardaddy' but there is still the dream there for every club, it there wasn't, what would the point be?

[Diego_Sideburns]

But this comes back to my complaint that that's me... I still go once or twice.

 

But there are many times where on a Saturday afternoon I choose to pay £20 to rent a mountain bike or see a movie or go to the pub or get a meal or go to the park... I have the time and money (not always, but sometimes) but not the inclination and so I stay away.

 

So would you deem me not a supporter? Or do I not fit into your black and white assessment?

 

It's simple, stay or go.

 

If you stay away and don't go, or don't support the Club in any way, you're a stayaway.

If you go, no matter how infrequently, or support the Club in some other way, you can't be a stayaway.

 

No matter how much you keep claiming or asking, you do not fit my definition.

 

If all the thousands who no longer go went to BP the odd time each season, they would cease to be stayaways and the Club's coffers would be healthier.

[Ackey]

It's simple, stay or go.

 

If you stay away and don't go, or don't support the Club in any way, you're a stayaway.

If you go, no matter how infrequently, or support the Club in some other way, you can't be a stayaway.

 

No matter how much you keep claiming or asking, you do not fit my definition.

 

If all the thousands who no longer go went to BP the odd time each season, they would cease to be stayaways and the Club's coffers would be healthier.

Got it.

[Lookers_Carl]

For the avoidance of doubt, my 'stayaway' definition is:

Someone who used to go to BP, and has the finance and time, but no longer the inclination, to go or to put money into the Club to help it survive, yet claims to be a Latics supporter, is a stayaway.

 

Ok thanks for clearing that up. So I will clarify that in this post, by this definition, those who 'did not give a :censored: in the first place' are not stayaways. I will also assume that someone who ued to go to Boundary Park but has now decided to follow City or United, whether it be watching them on Sky Sports or attending games, is not considered a 'stayaway' becuase they no longer claim to support the club.

 

But my point remains. If a stayaway by your definition, once attended and now do not, their must be a reason why. My point ultimately is that by blaming low attendances or 'stayaways' on Latics inability to compete, you are trying to deflect the clubs own failures onto others.

 

I will still use my example of a restaurant. A restaurant served substandard food in substandard environment and as a result struggled to say afloat as customers refuse to go, and go elsewhere. If the restaurant said that it is the regular customers fault we went under for not putting up with our substandard product in substandard environments they would be laughed at. If the restaurant tried to guilt trip former regular customers into coming back and paying good money for the same subsandard product in substandard envrionments they would be laughed at. So how do they get the customers back? Improve the food and/or the environment. The same rule applies to Latics.

 

But if you leave it too long you will eventually lose all interest and your former customers will spend the money they used to spend with you elsewhere, possibly on the same product. This also applies to Latics

 

The club needs to give the stayaways a reason to come back, address their own failures, and improve what they can offer to new and existing customers, or (building on JLF's example) not only do they risk many other stayaways to choose optons a and b over c) Latics, but they risk option c) Latics, on the list of things to do on a saturday becoming ommited, or replaced with c) Golf, or even worse, c) Eastlands/Old Trafford.

 

This responsibility lies with the club, and only the club.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Lookers_Carl

[BP1960]

Ok thanks for clearing that up. So I will clarify that in this post, by this definition, those who 'did not give a :censored: in the first place' are not stayaways. I will also assume that someone who ued to go to Boundary Park but has now decided to follow City or United, whether it be watching them on Sky Sports or attending games, is not considered a 'stayaway' becuase they no longer claim to support the club.

 

But my point remains. If a stayaway by your definition, once attended and now do not, their must be a reason why. My point ultimately is that by blaming low attendances or 'stayaways' on Latics inability to compete, you are trying to deflect the clubs own failures onto others.

 

I will still use my example of a restaurant. A restaurant served substandard food in substandard environment and as a result struggled to say afloat as customers refuse to go, and go elsewhere. If the restaurant said that it is the regular customers fault we went under for not putting up with our substandard product in substandard environments they would be laughed at. If the restaurant tried to guilt trip former regular customers into coming back and paying good money for the same subsandard product in substandard envrionments they would be laughed at. So how do they get the customers back? Improve the food and/or the environment. The same rule applies to Latics.

 

But if you leave it too long you will eventually lose all interest and your former customers will spend the money they used to spend with you elsewhere, possibly on the same product. This also applies to Latics

 

The club needs to give the stayaways a reason to come back, address their own failures, and improve what they can offer to new and existing customers, or (building on JLF's example) not only do they risk many other stayaways to choose optons a and b over c) Latics, but they risk option c) Latics, on the list of things to do on a saturday becoming ommited, or replaced with c) Golf, or even worse, c) Eastlands/Old Trafford.

 

This responsibility lies with the club, and only the club.

 

What's the Spotted Dickov like in your restaurant ?

Edited September 27, 2011 by BP1960

[Diego_Sideburns]

Using the restaurant analogy, relying on the reducing number with the "McDonalds's 'til I die" philosophy is a recipe for disaster and brings a lump to the throat.

[Lookers_Carl]

Using the restaurant analogy, relying on the reducing number with the "McDonalds's 'til I die" philosophy is a recipe for disaster and brings a lump to the throat.

 

But my point still remains Diego which you seem to be evading, that if a business offers a substandard product in a substandard environment and fails as a result, it is laughable to blame once regular customers who now refuse to pay for the substandard product in a substandard environment for the failure as you seem to be doing, as opposed to the business for failing to address its own failures, as you seem to be doing.

 

You have defined and labeled a group of people who claim to be supporters as 'stayaways'. I am still unsure as to whether I count as a stayaway under your definition as I have not attended since last year, have very little intention of attending in the forseeable future, but I pay my cash to Playershare.

 

You are also blaming these 'stayaways' for the clubs inability to compete, yet you have not answered what I asked in an earlier thread.

 

What have the club done to give the stayaways a reason to come back and earn back their support?

What can the club offer the stayaways in return for their support?

What reason have these 'stayaways' got to start attending games again?

[oafc0000]

Disagree there. From my view, all 92 clubs still have the chance of the dream. Every so often, one of them pops up, such as Blackpool, Swansea etc, who would of thought that they would reach the premier league? In 2000 Blackpool had just been relegated to the 4th division, ten years later they was in the Premier league. Swansea end of the 02/03 season, just survived.. 9 years later they are in the premier legue.. The dream is still there for all 92 clubs.. Some may have more of a chance due to a 'sugardaddy' but there is still the dream there for every club, it there wasn't, what would the point be?

 

Each to there own but this is how I view it...

 

Both Blackpool and Swansea have received heavy investment... The dream is now hoping someone with more money than sense is ready to blow the lot. That is the dream. Its not much of a dream in my opinion. There are only so many people who fit that description.

 

As for if it isn't there what would the point be... That is exactly what I am getting at... There is no point.

[RobOAFC]

Each to there own but this is how I view it...

 

Both Blackpool and Swansea have received heavy investment... The dream is now hoping someone with more money than sense is ready to blow the lot. That is the dream. Its not much of a dream in my opinion. There are only so many people who fit that description.

 

As for if it isn't there what would the point be... That is exactly what I am getting at... There is no point.

Not checked on how much investment both have recieved, but i can't remember Blackpool paying out much in transfer fees and such, but may be wrong.. If there was no point, don't you think the club owners, board members etc would have been long gone by now and sold the clubs to supporter's trust?

[GlossopLatic]

Interesting that quite a few of the stayaways on this thread are or have been moderators of this message board.

 

I do wonder if having to run a board like this with all the politics on it has killed the enthusiasm for some of you?

 

This type of thing has always put me off getting involved with things like the Trust and playershare I just want to be a fan.

[Yard Dog]

Got it.

Thank :censored: for that.

[Matt]

Interesting that quite a few of the stayaways on this thread are or have been moderators of this message board.

No we're not. DS has clearly defined the term 'stayaway' for us all to comprehend, and it looks like we're safe from the leper-like name tag.

[Diego_Sideburns]

But my point still remains Diego which you seem to be evading, that if a business offers a substandard product in a substandard environment and fails as a result, it is laughable to blame once regular customers who now refuse to pay for the substandard product in a substandard environment for the failure as you seem to be doing, as opposed to the business for failing to address its own failures, as you seem to be doing.

 

You have defined and labeled a group of people who claim to be supporters as 'stayaways'. I am still unsure as to whether I count as a stayaway under your definition as I have not attended since last year, have very little intention of attending in the forseeable future, but I pay my cash to Playershare.

 

You are also blaming these 'stayaways' for the clubs inability to compete, yet you have not answered what I asked in an earlier thread.

 

 

You're one of the few who pays cash to the Club indirectly via PlayerShare, therefore you're excluded from my definition.

 

You ask:

What have the club done to give the stayaways a reason to come back and earn back their support?

As a supporter of the Club, which never wins anything, I cannot get into the mindset of it needing to earn my support. Call it blind loyalty if you want. Experience has shown that if the Club offered the prospect of glory in the form of a cup tie against a large club, some would come back, but by its very nature it would be short-lived support.

 

What can the club offer the stayaways in return for their support?

If enough of them return, the cash generated may encourage outside investment and expedite plans for the redevelopment of BP, with a view to securing the Club's future. It's a chicken and egg situation.

 

What reason have these 'stayaways' got to start attending games again?

A willingness to contribute towards the survival of the Club.

 

You can compare it with businesses and products, but as I said earlier the attitude of "Oldham 'til I die" is something not understood easily as it defies all logic.

[Scapegoat]

I have had a season ticket with my Dad for over 20 years now, and it is a family tradition now. It's what we do, and as I haven't lived in the area for the last 18 years it is something that means I regularly come back to see family and friends.

 

Because I have a season ticket I come to pretty much every game (work and occasional unavoidable social commitment aside) but I'll be honest without the ST I am not sure I'd drag myself to BP that regularly if it was always a 'choice' on a Saturday morning between a wet, cold and often poor form of entertainment vs other activites (go away, ride my bike, etc).

 

I also think that once you get out of the habit of going "week in, week out" then it gets easier and easier to go to less and less games. When someone then decides to go along for the first time in a while, if they are reminded what a :censored: hole it is, how expensive it is and then we serve a performance like we did on Saturday its very easy to see why people stop going.

 

I don't think these people are any less of a supporter than myself with a ST, or those that still choose to pay on the gate every week. Those that do go will surely admit that it is often not a 'fun' afternoon, and we are there out of routine, time to see mates etc.

 

Simple fact, said a number of times. Play good football and win and we all enjoy it. Do that regularly enough and people will start coming back. Don't and eventually the 'die hards' will slowly erode and crowds will drop.

 

 

Back to the OP. The cash thing is a shockingly big gap. And whist teams can still dream of success, 25 years ago I think 'smaller' teams had a belief that they could get to the top division and have a reasonable chance of doing alright and maybe finishing mid-table. These days you get up, you are almost certain to be bookies favourites to go down and will get relegated and hope that it don't leave you with a financial burden for the next 3 years that could sink your club. Unless you have the 'sugardaddy' and the size of the 'funds' needed to make a difference mean that they are fewer and fewer...

[Stevie_J]

Interesting that quite a few of the stayaways on this thread are or have been moderators of this message board.

 

I do wonder if having to run a board like this with all the politics on it has killed the enthusiasm for some of you?

 

This type of thing has always put me off getting involved with things like the Trust and playershare I just want to be a fan.

Involvement with some of the people at the club doesn't help. Nor did the way they treated a friend employed at the club. Nor do the consistent failures of the club and, in saying that, I can live with Latics being crap but I struggle with watching mistake after mistake being made and the club going backwards.

 

However, location, money, kids are the main reasons I seldom attend thesedays.

 

But I'm not a stayaway; I've checked the definition.

[leeslover]

The key divide here is where people change from expecting to go unless there is something stopping them, to deciding when to go when they want to or circumstances suit. No judgement implied from me, being one of the latter. We will struggle without the former though.

[BlueJazzer]

I don't get this complaining about inferior product. It's a football club playing a game in a series of leagues. U pick ur team and support them through thick and thin. We can't all win all our games. If we did there'd be 92 clubs at the top of the prem? It's how leagues work. There's winners and losers.

If you only want to watch a club that has success go piss off and watch manure. And then when city finally get their talent to money ratio correct, switch to them.

[oafcprozac]

Interesting that quite a few of the stayaways on this thread are or have been moderators of this message board.

 

I do wonder if having to run a board like this with all the politics on it has killed the enthusiasm for some of you?

 

This type of thing has always put me off getting involved with things like the Trust and playershare I just want to be a fan.

 

Same here, admirable those that do, but you're pretty much where i'm at...

[BP1960]

I don't get this complaining about inferior product. It's a football club playing a game in a series of leagues. U pick ur team and support them through thick and thin. We can't all win all our games. If we did there'd be 92 clubs at the top of the prem? It's how leagues work. There's winners and losers.

If you only want to watch a club that has success go piss off and watch manure. And then when city finally get their talent to money ratio correct, switch to them.

 

Do I have to attend the same restaurant when its serving up average food ? I might out of loyalty, if it's cheap, and like the ambience, but if I see another establishment offering better value why shouldn't I give it a try.

Latics are a business like any other and have the basics right in a sound financial footing and a desire to improve the premises, but all this is no good if the product on the table won't draw in the customers.

Edited September 28, 2011 by BP1960

[Monty Burns]

I couldnt afford my ST this season, but have managed to scrape together the cash for four of the five games. Not having the ST, and actually handing over the cash really makes you appreciate how poor the 'product' is. Never thought I'd say anything like that, but I suspect my attendance this season is going to drop to around half the games. Away games are out of the question this season for the same reason. I also didnt realise just how good Soccer Saturday is.

[danoafc]

I have had a season ticket with my Dad for over 20 years now, and it is a family tradition now. It's what we do, and as I haven't lived in the area for the last 18 years it is something that means I regularly come back to see family and friends.

 

Because I have a season ticket I come to pretty much every game (work and occasional unavoidable social commitment aside) but I'll be honest without the ST I am not sure I'd drag myself to BP that regularly if it was always a 'choice' on a Saturday morning between a wet, cold and often poor form of entertainment vs other activites (go away, ride my bike, etc).

 

I also think that once you get out of the habit of going "week in, week out" then it gets easier and easier to go to less and less games. When someone then decides to go along for the first time in a while, if they are reminded what a :censored: hole it is, how expensive it is and then we serve a performance like we did on Saturday its very easy to see why people stop going.

 

I don't think these people are any less of a supporter than myself with a ST, or those that still choose to pay on the gate every week. Those that do go will surely admit that it is often not a 'fun' afternoon, and we are there out of routine, time to see mates etc.

 

Simple fact, said a number of times. Play good football and win and we all enjoy it. Do that regularly enough and people will start coming back. Don't and eventually the 'die hards' will slowly erode and crowds will drop.

 

 

Back to the OP. The cash thing is a shockingly big gap. And whist teams can still dream of success, 25 years ago I think 'smaller' teams had a belief that they could get to the top division and have a reasonable chance of doing alright and maybe finishing mid-table. These days you get up, you are almost certain to be bookies favourites to go down and will get relegated and hope that it don't leave you with a financial burden for the next 3 years that could sink your club. Unless you have the 'sugardaddy' and the size of the 'funds' needed to make a difference mean that they are fewer and fewer...

 

 

I agree with the highlighted part of the statement 100%. The question is, how does any club pay for the quality of squad and a manager with enough class and ability to achieve this goal?

[BlueJazzer]

Do I have to attend the same restaurant when its serving up average food ? I might out of loyalty, if it's cheap, and like the ambience, but if I see another establishment offering better value why shouldn't I give it a try.

Latics are a business like any other and have the basics right in a sound financial footing and a desire to improve the premises, but all this is no good if the product on the table won't draw in the customers.

 

Your missing the point. It's a football club. It's not a frigging restaurant. You can't compare the two.

You don't eat at a restaurant in your teens and decide that your going to eat there forever. You dpnt buy their uniforms and get your favourite waitresses names printed on the back. You don't make songs up about the cheese and onion pie and stand with a group of friends singing them.