Oh Heck C-Beck Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Alot of goals in that montage from midfielders taking the ball on and having a crack Dale Stephens Chris Taylor and Dean Furman perhaps we need to encourage them to do abit more of that. Those two were much better at creating openings, space and chances than our current lot and I felt brought out the best in Furman too, although I know that season went tits up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceStationLatic Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Tonk was the loan deal that fell through? Or did his deal finish at Sumderland? I think we need to play to players' strengths more. Smith isn't Ibra - get him in the box, turning towards goal more. He can still cause a nuisance even if he's not Fellaini. Derbyshire needs low to mid-range passes down channels, like for the Shrews goal, before he turns insane from a lack of service. Is Croft still a winger? He can cross but has he got the pace? He's still got touch and technique so maybe he'd be better in a midfield three with Wabara doing the leg work as a wing back? Why is Furman impressing do much for SA, then looks a bit more average here? What's happened to Wes? - he's supposed to be the muscle,given a free range to chase and harass players to win the ball in midfield. Maybe he's not the same since the shoulder injury. I wonder if Simpson was playing through an injury for a while - but I think he'd be best in a front three rather than a 'number ten' role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slystallone Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) I think you've touched on a point I was discussing at the weekend. I think Croft has been one of the better performers this season - a consistent 7 out of 10 most games, and (for a fat lad!) he puts in one heck of shift for the team. BUT - and here's the point that links in with what I was saying over the weekend - you're right; is he a "winger" anymore? I don't think he is in the old school sense of the word. On Saturday he put in 1 or 2 balls to the box; but they were after he'd drifted and received the ball, not as a result of him going on the outside and beating a man; then whipping it in. IMO, Croft has a great touch (for this level), and his passing and vision for a pass are a cut above the normal at League One standard. He works ever so hard for the team, and isn't afraid of an aerial challenge or a tackle. With all the difficulties we're having in the middle of the park with creativity, forward thrust, directness, CM's joining in and getting in & around the box etc - IMO - Lee Croft should be given a go in there; alongside Wes. To do that - he (Croft) would need a defensive minded player to make sure we weren't too gung-ho and caught out defensively. Out of the 2 'senior' options, Wes is the better at that IMO. I'm still not really sure what Furman is? He's OK at the defensive side of the CM role, and he's OK at the forward part (when he's allowed to / want to), but Wes is very, very good at the defensive side of the CM role, so he would get the nod there. That way, we're utilising Croft's abilities in a way that will IMO improve the team's shape & dynamism - as it'll surely give us more drive from the centre than we've seen all season? Wide right; it wouldn't need to be an out & out winger replacement really - as Croft hasn't really been doing that role if truth be told. It would be a Right Midfielder; not a Right Winger. M'Changama could fill in there, so could Winchester….or; if you felt it did still need a winger - young Sutherland could go there. The last 3/4 games have shown again, that if we don't attack down the wings, or through the centre - all we end up doing is going long to Matt Derbyshire; when that is so not his game. Then, with 20 to go, we bring on Smith, still going long. I think moving Croft inside might just give us that bit more creativity and drive through the middle, that in all honest, we're crying out for IMO. Edited November 26, 2012 by slystallone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardie Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 For all the tactical suggestions made on here, and some of them make a lot more sense than what we are currently getting on the pitch, you know in your heart of hearts that Dickov will not change his game-plan. Six points from two games should be celebrated, yet here we are, still unconvinced and still not happy. That in itself speaks volumes about the state of play. I detest the term 'win ugly' and I don't think we even achieved that on Saturday...we won, and only just, against a team lacking in confidence and whom we should have buried by half-time. It does not exactly inspire any confidence for what lies ahead. In my opinion, it is still only a matter of time before Dickov is shown the door. I hope I am wrong and I hope he makes me eat my words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 These wins might just be the start of a growth in confidence that benefits us. <clutches for straws> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardie Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 These wins might just be the start of a growth in confidence that benefits us. <clutches for straws> I think that, had Latics won the games convincingly, then you might be right. But as it is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfatjoe1 Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 These wins might just be the start of a growth in confidence that benefits us. <clutches for straws> confidence is always vital. spot on. but what is worrying is that we get in a position where we have good performances(eg Crewe, Preston etc) confidence seems to be high and then it crumbles, quickly, and we go back to bad habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfatjoe1 Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 For all the tactical suggestions made on here, and some of them make a lot more sense than what we are currently getting on the pitch, you know in your heart of hearts that Dickov will not change his game-plan. Six points from two games should be celebrated, yet here we are, still unconvinced and still not happy. That in itself speaks volumes about the state of play. I detest the term 'win ugly' and I don't think we even achieved that on Saturday...we won, and only just, against a team lacking in confidence and whom we should have buried by half-time. It does not exactly inspire any confidence for what lies ahead. In my opinion, it is still only a matter of time before Dickov is shown the door. I hope I am wrong and I hope he makes me eat my words. depressingly rings true. an ugly win in the context of a long period of generally good football is one thing, but an ugly win because we're totally inconsistant, fragile in confidence (and squad depth) and capable of in-plosion at any time is another issue. far more concerning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy_Fent Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 These wins might just be the start of a growth in confidence that benefits us. <clutches for straws> we're up against much tougher opposition than the previous two games tomorrow, we're going to need more than confidence to get anything from the game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 we're up against much tougher opposition than the previous two games tomorrow, we're going to need more than confidence to get anything from the game It was a very tongue in cheek comment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 As a confirmed happy clapper Dickov inner I have to say it was pretty poor on Saturday, cold, wet and miserable. We had three full backs on the pitch and a makeshift strike force. One central defender in error prone mode and a team that despite a mid week win was low on confidence and ideas. We played brightly in spells from the off but retreated into our shell at times. One good ball down the line, a good turn from a striker who by rights shouldn't be playing in this division and one of the full backs puts it in. They were there for the taking but the team retreated back into itself and invited them onto us. Second half was even worse, we had little invention, little craft and little desire to go on and get the second to put the game to bed. They pushed us deeper and deeper but set pieces apart they actually rarely threatened us. I was having kittens in the stands waiting for the inevitable equaliser and no doubt winner to both go in but they never came. Mvoto had a decent game, one marvellous bit of *skill* on the edge of our box that was great to watch with hindsight but at the time was heartache stuff. Far too much "lets not lose this" rather than "lets go and win it" but for a team that had recently dipped into the bottom four I can understand that. We got our second win in a week albeit against 2 poor sides but history won't record that. So what will get us more goals, for me, belief and confidence. And Baxter not dropping as deep. Derbyshire's goals have dried up at the, can't fault his work rate but I think he needs a bit more support up there and he isn't getting it from Jose, plus, the further Jose drops back to receive the ball reduces the space for the central midfield to operate in and they then drop deeper. Montano and Croft need to be needing their boots cleaning at the end of the game due to the white lines down the sides of their boots, if they can stretch the defence wide it will create more space for Baxter to attack the centrebacks and create the space for Wes and Furman to push on to their central midfield. And luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceStationLatic Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Montano and Croft need to be needing their boots cleaning at the end of the game due to the white lines down the sides of their boots, if they can stretch the defence wide it will create more space for Baxter to attack the centrebacks and create the space for Wes and Furman to push on to their central midfield. And luck. That's what happens when Dickov/the players make 4-4-2 work, but to apply that you have to move the ball quickly - that's where the confidence comes in. Move the ball too slowly and make too many safe passes and, as we've seen, the opposition just get tight on our wingers and add a body in midfield to go three on two. Then there's no stretching at all. A prime example was Sheff Wed right at the start of the season - we blitzed it first half, then they went five in midfield and suddenly we lost drive, momentum and confidence. Are the players intelligent enough to understand all this 'keeping shape' enough? Is it too easy to defend against, particularly in a 4-4-2 - eg the usual move the ball out wide to a winger or a full-back overlapping, other team shifts across; end product - corner; centre-back heads clear, nil. They play through the middle, long-rage shot - force keeper into a save; the extra midfielder turns and runs from deep, threads through a ball - almost puts a centre-forward in on goal. They might have a third of the possession but have more shots! Aside from tactics, my own view is that I want Dickov to be angry Dickov a lot, not just one of the boys. Yes you have to keep a squad happy, but you also have to discipline them. Yes players will want to stay if it's a good positive atmosphere in training, but they also will in that case because it's 'comfortable'. At Grimsby, where I work, the joint managers they have are very firm - the players will look scared after one shocker (they know what's coming), even when they're top of the league. They slip up the odd time yes, but it's rare now - the 'same old Town', 'typical Town' negativity was fading even before they went top of the league. When they f up the odd time, you can tell they've been scolded and there's always a big response next game. I want Dickov to keep the players on their toes. I don't want this 'battling mentality' to pull us out the drop zone, then just reverting to type and it 'just not being our night', bemoaning culture of negativity etc. Tomorrow night is my local game this season as I can't make Scunny away. I'll be driving down pretty disillusioned to be honest and just hope the players will perform and lift me. If Saunders has Donny playing anything like he used to have Wrexham in the Conference, it will be a direct, physical, pressing 4-3-3. If that's the case and we don't have the stomach for it, we'll struggle to get out our own half and we'll just be battered in midfield. I hope there's some magic from somewhere - one light at the end of the M180....... Jose Baxter Baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcmetty Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 I think moving Croft inside might just give us that bit more creativity and drive through the middle, that in all honest, we're crying out for IMO. Our best two chances on Sat (incl the goal), came from moves down the right involving Croft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slystallone Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Our best two chances on Sat (incl the goal), came from moves down the right involving Croft. But very, very early on in both those moves. Derbyshire had the main assist for the goal, and Wes actually broke forward and got the ball across from the inside right position (we should have scored from one too IMO) I'm not saying we haven't / don't create anything down the right. I'm saying that we don't create enough through the centre, from the middle 2 in the midfield. IMO, Croft could solve that, without a massive detriment to the way we're set up anyway. It means moving 1 player inside, and dropping 1 'star'* man to the bench. But - let's be honest here. It's my musings on formation. PD wont do it. He'll stick to what he has done to date; that being a pretty rigid 4-4-2 it seems. .* the way he's played this season - Preston apart - 'star' man is a very loose term for our captain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcmetty Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I agree, midfield is where the problem is (although when Baxter plays, less so). But I don't think weakening ourselves down probably our most productive flank is the way of solving it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigDog Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I agree, midfield is where the problem is (although when Baxter plays, less so). But I don't think weakening ourselves down probably our most productive flank is the way of solving it. Agree that we should not underestimate the value that Croft brings with his closing down, chasing back and tackling. However I would like to see more of his talent applied to getting crosses into the box and having the occasional shot...maybe he is to knackered after all the 'closing down, chasing back and tackling...?' I expect that tonight will see Smith dropped to the bench and Baxter back. Whether Montano deserves to come straight back in is a good question - away from home I would leave Grounds wide left and look for a game played with pace and on the ground! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stainrod Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Montano to start for me. Grounds like a duck out of water on Saturday, kept drifting infield and providing no width BUT he is our best left back and should return there. Harsh on Brown? No, he looks a little lightweight to me and prone to panic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shefflatic Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 (edited) 1-0 down Created :censored: all again tonight judging by LP - the usual predictive pattern. 'Wabara runs with it, to Croft, back to Wabara, to Byrne, Byrne looks long over the top for Baxter but Baxter doesn't get to it' Now get caught out by a quick free kick and Gordon/Roy then use the excuse that Latics weren't ready 'a bit unfortunate that Roy'; like its ok to let in goals as shoddy as that. Point is, another nothing performance - 3rd or not there is nothing between any of the teams in this league - Donny being poor tonight and us worse. Grounds at LW when it is not his position says it all, as well as he did on Saturday (only bright spark), PD needed to do whats best for the team. Team cannot put more than literally two passes together and i have lost count how many times I have heard 'poor ball from Furman, Furman turns back for the reverse pass' Wes off now and not his golden boy Furman....hmm..... It's not going to change and our performances and attacking purpose is so pathetically inept it is beyond a joke. Sunday league teams show more adventure and ambition! Sorry Paul, good players brought in but :censored:ing clueless tactician - time to go. (Queue the -'s) Edited November 27, 2012 by shefflatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertine Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 We almost always fail to dominate midfield..... As the home team the onus is on us to force the initiative. We have surrendered the middle of the park to the opposition in 90% of the home games I have seen. It's not difficult to understand why we are so poor at home, it ain't rocket science. Dickov has said recently that we have one of the best midfield pairings in the division........ Is he watching the same team? Agree 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshgaz Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Massively fed up tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Same old lack of goals story, I think the cup game is vital now to his future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stargazer Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Our lack of ambition to score more goals on Saturday but winning the game , would have cemented the mindest for this one. How we create so little week in week out is bizarre , we don't score enough , never put a game to bed (excepting Preston) and simply underachieve game after game. We have beaten Kidderminster (non league), Hartlepool(division rubbing rags) when they were down to 10 men & Shrewsbury (not convincing at all) in recent history. For goodness sake Mr Manager send your team out on the front foot on Saturday , a whimpy defeat ends our season on December 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 a whimpy defeat ends our season on December 1. You wanna check the league table mate, season is far from over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashlatic Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Our lack of ambition to score more goals on Saturday but winning the game , would have cemented the mindest for this one. How we create so little week in week out is bizarre , we don't score enough , never put a game to bed (excepting Preston) and simply underachieve game after game. We have beaten Kidderminster (non league), Hartlepool(division rubbing rags) when they were down to 10 men & Shrewsbury (not convincing at all) in recent history. For goodness sake Mr Manager send your team out on the front foot on Saturday , a whimpy defeat ends our season on December 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ritchierich Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Second half, according to the stats we managed 1 shot and 1 corner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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