jimsleftfoot Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 I get sick of hearing that we get grants for this, that and the other from the EU. We get nothing!!! We pay in more than we get back. Stop paying into the EU and we can have twice as much money to spend! Spend??? Or would the money go straight back into the pockets in tax cuts to the wealthy. Places like Oldham do benefit from EU grants. We're unlikely to get any such grants from the Tory party. EU is big government, the old Tory boys hate that, it's not so much they don't want to spend money on the EU, they don't want to spend money full stop. As much as Cameron and Osbonre are idiots, they are not as bad as what the party could be without them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Interesting question that. My thinking is that the likes of Bosman might be tested and a new precedent set without the European Court to appeal to, but it's not like an English court today would allow the previous system either. It should do away with situations like the Commission meeting to decide how to break their own laws to restrict freedom of employment for players as they have done. Presumably the vast bulk of directives have been adopted via Parliament and would have to be repealed as desired? Might be some overtime going for that. The overtime could be brutal. I think you're right about adoption...but I think the laws still come under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Can you just transfer it to the Supreme Court? This and many other important practical questions remain unaddressed by the political classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeykieran Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Those who want to leave Europe should get on a plane and leave the rest of us to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeykieran Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Some remedial comments on here which mirrors my concerns of a thoroughly uninformed public - a public who actually consider umip to be a serious political party. Bonkers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Agree about Dieng - shame if it happened, but NATO has kept the peace. The EU seems hell-bent on confronting Putin. NATO has an awful lot of EU countries in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 NATO has an awful lot of EU countries in it.I'm not sure it was fear of the Belgian army that deterred the Warsaw Pact. The US provided the forces for Western Europe, and paid for them. West Germany still had thousands of American and British tanks across it throughout the EU years. Who could have fought each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 6 pages in and lots of clear, articulate reasoning about why to leave vs Very little such reasoning about why we should stay in. A few valid seeming points but mainly nudge, nudge, wink, wink nothingness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
super_blue Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 (edited) Some remedial comments on here which mirrors my concerns of a thoroughly uninformed public - a public who actually consider umip to be a serious political party. Bonkers Enlighten us on what you are informed of.... Edited April 8, 2016 by super_blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Some remedial comments on here which mirrors my concerns of a thoroughly uninformed public - a public who actually consider umip to be a serious political party. BonkersI thoroughly dislike UKIP, but want to leave the EU. Jeremy Corbyn also wants to. It shouldn't come down to the day to day politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc-latics Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 (edited) 6 pages in and lots of clear, articulate reasoning about why to leave vs Very little such reasoning about why we should stay in. A few valid seeming points but mainly nudge, nudge, wink, wink nothingness. Yet the poll has only 8 votes in it. And that's only from OWTB users who I'd imagine are majority adult working class men. The official polls I've seen on the subject seem to show it's pretty much equal between stay and leave. You mention the nature of the stay arguments on here, but some people's leave arguments are also 'nudge, nudge' in nature, it reflects the general lack of knowledge around the whole issue. My gut feeling is to stay, but I've found this thread useful for familiarising myself with the 'Leave' arguments. I tend to disagree with UKIP/Conservatives who appear to be blaming the EU when there's more pressing problems at home, but the general EU discontent seems valid going off the main points that have been raised. That said, I still think the uncertainty of leaving isn't worth a 'leave' vote. If we did leave, we'd be faced with a government who opposed the decision, and no apparent plan of what we'd do after we left. Edited April 8, 2016 by oafc-latics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeykieran Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 (edited) Im sure you all have access to websites and newspapers full of facts and opinions so i wont bore you with repetition of these. But a few points important to me not mentioned: - many of the population of this country are more alligned to being "european" than "british" - and I'm not just talking about foreign nationals. Humans are millions of years old - our genetic lineage is not originally from this island - we are all immigrants and our nation is a flash in the pan of our European journey so far. - many brits like to hold Britain/uk/england up on a pedestal for some strange reason (always highly amusing to most Germans, Dutch, Belgians etc that I meet who don't have the same weird arrogance) - it is nowhere near the richest country per capita amonest eu, or nowhere near best gdp per capita, life satisfaction, health, sevices and more. It happens to also have the most shocking inequality differences on many measures in the world, whereas Eu at large is one of the more equal regions of the world (see "the spirit level" by Richard wilkinson for more on why this is an important issue to consider) - the Scots voted to stay part of Britain, as a Britain in Europe. They would have a mandate for a further referendum if Britain left the eu. As a highly europhile region they would vote to stay in eu and would inevitable leave Britain- not only would this have an enourmous (negative) political and financial effect for the rest of the UK directly it would also take away a huge percentage of the parliamentary constituencies that are generally non-tory (even more if this would have further devolution triggers for Wales or other areas) - this would effectively leave us as a one party country (happy days if you're a tory - I am not). If we had real PR voting this would be less of an issue. - having worked for a german-French financial company based in canary wharf protecting the risks of trade between companies globally - I have a fair insight into how regions and politics and changes in governments and laws affect trade. Many people often complain that London is disroportinately wealthy in the UK- true - but there is one reason why the rest of the country even has anywhere near the opportunities it has and that is because London is the global financial centre (this is so much more significant than the in campaign talking about effects to exports for leaving eu - which is in itself massive - if you don't work in export you're unlikely to know about the global picture of our wealth - but the public are hardly going to back bankers after 2009). I hate bankers and banking as much as the rest of us - but the simple fact is that it makes our world (britain) go round. Should we leave the EU this would be the beginning of the end for London being this hub. Maybe finally Britain will then realise we are the middle rate once-was country we actually are - so that won't be a bad thing (to me as someone who is not finally motivated) - but it will bring us backwards compared to shanghai, new York, and in europe frankfurt and Paris and their respective countries and regions. -the argument is all about money to most (and for the naive, less travelled or flat out racist amongst us - immigrants) - for me its a human argument whereby the eu stands for solidarity and commonality based on shared values and ethics. To want to leave says "*we're different and better than you and we'll be better off without you all" we aren't and we won't be. There are many reasons for why we should leave that I agree with, but many people voting to leave are basing decisions on irrational or unbalanced responses to immigration, finance and constitution. I for one hope this (*) little tantrum doesn't haunt the public of this nation for the generations to come until we inevitably come back into the fold again Edited April 9, 2016 by monkeykieran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 https://fullfact.org/europe/governments-eu-referendum-leaflet-what-we-know-so-far/ The Government's EU referendum leaflet: what we know so far Next week every household in the country will receive a leaflet from the government setting out its case for why it thinks the UK should remain an EU member. We’ve picked out a few of the claims made in the leaflet for a brief round-up of what we know about them so far. We’ll be checking more claims from this leaflet and from the leaflet produced by Vote Leave in the coming days. https://fullfact.org/europe/governments-eu-referendum-leaflet-what-we-know-so-far/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piglinbland Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 6 pages in and lots of clear, articulate reasoning about why to leave vs Very little such reasoning about why we should stay in. A few valid seeming points but mainly nudge, nudge, wink, wink nothingness. Au contraire. I think the posts supporting an "in" vote are developing themes that are constant and cogent. For example, monkeykieran elaborates (far more eloquently than I could) on the very real possibility of Scottish devolution - a subject I touched on and which seemed to amuse you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piglinbland Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 (edited) 'It’s sometimes argued that these statistics overstate the proportion of UK exports that go to the EU, as a lot of goods pass through ports like Rotterdam before being shipped to a final destination outside the EU. Both the ONS and the government's review of our EU membership have concluded that it's hard to quantify the extent of this ‘Rotterdam effect’ or establish whether it's a serious problem for the statistics.' (from rummytheowl's link) Part of my business interests lie in the shipment of sea containers out of Europe to various destinations around the world. I use the port of Le Havre as a point of exit because of it's location and importance. But customers can and do purchase commodities in the U.K. and deliver them to mainland Europe free of duty and without specific customs control - from where they are loaded into containers with other goods and will eventually satisfy customs formalities before leaving the EU. The principle of free circulation. Should Britain exit the EU then my clients will be obliged to cease trading in the UK. Of course they can always ship directly out of the UK but this is unlikely as the bulk of their purchase lies in Europe. Britain will effectively be off the shopping list. I know my own operation is insignificant in size but I suppose this scenario could be replicated right across the board. Edited April 9, 2016 by piglinbland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeykieran Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 (edited) Instead of leaving the eu we should be having referendums on the far more pointless, costly, and ethically unsound things that we are forced to endure as relics of the middle ages and before: 1) Monarchy 2) Religious privilege and power For more info on why, try a look here: https://republic.org.uk/ http://www.secularism.org.uk Edited April 9, 2016 by monkeykieran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Instead of leaving the eu we should be having referendums on the far more pointless, costly, and ethically unsound things that we are forced to endure as relics of the middle ages and before: 1) Monarchy 2) Religious privilege and power For more info on why, try a look here: https://republic.org.uk/ http://www.secularism.org.uk Totally agree. I think I'm of reasonable intelligence yet no matter how much I read about this issue I still don't feel informed enough to be totally confident in being right one way or the other. It feels like it's one massive smokescreen to slip a few things under the radar while we're all bickering about whether an 'out' vote is racist or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Instead of leaving the eu we should be having referendums on the far more pointless, costly, and ethically unsound things that we are forced to endure as relics of the middle ages and before: 1) Monarchy 2) Religious privilege and power For more info on why, try a look here: https://republic.org.uk/ http://www.secularism.org.uk On a side note about the monarchy, are they not net contributors to the economy when you factor in their estates and tourism vs what they cost us? Not fans of the elitism and privilege etc but without them what would a lot of overseas visitors come to Britain to see?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeykieran Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 On a side note about the monarchy, are they not net contributors to the economy when you factor in their estates and tourism vs what they cost us? Not fans of the elitism and privilege etc but without them what would a lot of overseas visitors come to Britain to see?!quick answer = no. Loads of real facts on this on the link I just posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeykieran Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 (edited) https://republic.org.uk/what-we-want/royal-finances https://republic.org.uk/what-we-want/monarchy-myth-buster/its-good-tourism More detailed info elsewhere. Sorry back to to immigrant bashing... Edited April 9, 2016 by monkeykieran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 https://republic.org.uk/what-we-want/royal-finances https://republic.org.uk/what-we-want/monarchy-myth-buster/its-good-tourism More detailed info elsewhere. Sorry back to to immigrant bashing... Cheers I had a scout round the site but missed that, it's early! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeykieran Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Cheers I had a scout round the site but missed that, it's early!it's not really the best site actually (basic and hard to navigate) and the important links are all at the bottom. There is link to a detailed report on royal expenses there somewhere which is worth a read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 I'm not sure it was fear of the Belgian army that deterred the Warsaw Pact. The US provided the forces for Western Europe, and paid for them. West Germany still had thousands of American and British tanks across it throughout the EU years. Who could have fought each other? Any such military agreement between countries needs political and diplomatic will. Do you really think NATO can be put in one box and the EU in another? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Burns Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Tim Dieng wouldn't get a work permit. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Burns Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Au contraire. I think the posts supporting an "in" vote are developing themes that are constant and cogent. For example, monkeykieran elaborates (far more eloquently than I could) on the very real possibility of Scottish devolution - a subject I touched on and which seemed to amuse you. Yeah but he also says Humans are millions of years old when quite clearly it is only the year 2016, so.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Any such military agreement between countries needs political and diplomatic will. Do you really think NATO can be put in one box and the EU in another? Now this is the typical incorrect logic that really winds me up! Its saying dont vote based on the pros and cons of the body that we are voting on-vote on the pros and cons of another seperate body Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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