leeslover Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 A lot of the points to stay being put to younger voters pretend that nothing positive in the world would exist without the EU. Freedom of movement for example. Do Americans or Japanese tourists find it hard to go to Paris or Rome or Crete on holiday? For that matter is it hard now for us to go to Egypt or Estonia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lags Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Ask yourselves one simple question. Are your family better off, with a better standard of living than those gone before them? My answer is clearly, yes. So why fix what's not broke. I have no axe with those that don't want further integration, but that's not Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueatheart Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Ask yourselves one simple question. Are your family better off, with a better standard of living than those gone before them? My answer is clearly, yes. So why fix what's not broke. I have no axe with those that don't want further integration, but that's not Brexit. It's the same in the US, Canada, Australia etc. The EU is not some glorious economy maker, it's more of the opposite. See Spain and Italy etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 (edited) Ask yourselves one simple question. Are your family better off, with a better standard of living than those gone before them? My answer is clearly, yes. So why fix what's not broke. I have no axe with those that don't want further integration, but that's not Brexit. Nowrigans and Swiss would give a similar answer. And not being in the Euro has certainly benefited us. The failure to sign off accounts tells me it's broken. That needs changing. Edited April 10, 2016 by opinions4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 It's the same in the US, Canada, Australia etc. The EU is not some glorious economy maker, it's more of the opposite. See Spain and Italy etc.As said before, it's the only area of the world not growing. We backed the wrong horse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 A lot of the points to stay being put to younger voters pretend that nothing positive in the world would exist without the EU. Freedom of movement for example. Do Americans or Japanese tourists find it hard to go to Paris or Rome or Crete on holiday? For that matter is it hard now for us to go to Egypt or Estonia? It's easy to go on holiday anywhere but our kids might want to live and work in Hamburg, Paris or Madrid, freedom of movement is something we should hold on to, the immigration problems that occurred in Oldham among other places had more to do with our commonwealth than the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frizzell54 Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 It's easy to go on holiday anywhere but our kids might want to live and work in Hamburg, Paris or Madrid, freedom of movement is something we should hold on to, the immigration problems that occurred in Oldham among other places had more to do with our commonwealth than the EU. The USA works because most/all workers can move from state to state because the common language is English. Unless your children speak German, French, Spanish or Italian the freedom of movement is limited. However, since many in Europe speak English their freedom is somewhat greater than ours and we see they move in this direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Burns Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 I'm really enjoying this thread. Been surprised that some people's opining doesn't fit with what I would expect. Very grown up too, which is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 It's easy to go on holiday anywhere but our kids might want to live and work in Hamburg, Paris or Madrid, freedom of movement is something we should hold on toYou get that as an EFTA member. I would also like to see free movement. Can you imagine the pressure the remaining countries would be under to sort something out during the 2 year exit negotiations? They would hardly want to catch the blame for hundreds of thousands of their young people coming home to unemployment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Nowrigans and Swiss would give a similar answer. And not being in the Euro has certainly benefited us. The failure to sign off accounts tells me it's broken. That needs changing. Norway though has the biggest oil wealth fund in the world, a large percentage of its workforce is employed by the state off the back of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Norway though has the biggest oil wealth fund in the world, a large percentage of its workforce is employed by the state off the back of this. Norway also pay into the EU but have no say in how things are done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 (edited) Norway though has the biggest oil wealth fund in the world, a large percentage of its workforce is employed by the state off the back of this.The difference of how Norway and the UK has managed their oil wealth revenues is quite shocking. To say we've wasted a lot of it away would be an understatement. We have not got a huge amount to sow for it. Edited April 10, 2016 by singe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 The difference of how Norway and the UK has managed their oil wealth revenues is quite shocking. To say we've wasted a lot of it away would be an understatement. We have not got a huge amount to sow for it. While I'd agree a 90% smaller population helps them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piglinbland Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 (edited) None of that is due to EU its general World progress as others eluded to moved on we really haven't as much as many......and think a generation coming up finding it's not that great. Huge debts being covered up by politicians that will be gone when :censored: hits fan. Seriously think it is broke or wouldn't be having the ref in first place. Not delivered promises akin to the student loan promises say one thing do another. I find it amazing that we can have such diametrically opposed views regarding the same symptoms (and still play nicely!). The E.U. is performing it's function as it's founders would have wished in a world of diminishing returns. Viewed dispassionately and without the emotive but irrelevant rhetoric, the E.U. is without doubt one of the pinnacles of human achievement, an astoundingly complex organisation based on the highest aesthetic ideals and one which has endowed us with an unprecedented level of luxury that we probably don't deserve. Like any quality mechanism it needs constant fettling and maintenance. It beggars belief that 30 odd million people would prefer to place their faith in absolute lemons like Farage, Corbyn or Johnson. Edited April 11, 2016 by piglinbland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frizzell54 Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 (edited) The E.U. is performing it's function as it's founders would have wished in a world of diminishing returns. Viewed dispassionately and without the emotive but irrelevant rhetoric, the E.U. is without doubt one of the pinnacles of human achievement, an astoundingly complex organisation based on the highest aesthetic ideals and one which has endowed us with an unprecedented level of luxury that we probably don't deserve. Like any quality mechanism it needs constant fettling and maintenance. It beggars belief that 30 odd million people believe the twaddle above. FIFY Edited April 11, 2016 by frizzell54 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 I find it amazing that we can have such diametrically opposed views regarding the same symptoms (and still play nicely!). The E.U. is performing it's function as it's founders would have wished in a world of diminishing returns. Viewed dispassionately and without the emotive but irrelevant rhetoric, the E.U. is without doubt one of the pinnacles of human achievement, an astoundingly complex organisation based on the highest aesthetic ideals and one which has endowed us with an unprecedented level of luxury that we probably don't deserve. Like any quality mechanism it needs constant fettling and maintenance. It beggars belief that 30 odd million people would prefer to place their faith in absolute lemons like Farage, Corbyn or Johnson. It's not a world of diminishing returns. The last couple of decades have seen an astonishing fall in poverty at the same time as several billion more people being born into previously poor countries. In every continent bar one standards of living are surging ahead. It's only a few places mired in corruption, centralisation and bureaucracy that are stagnating. The EU and Russia are the obvious examples Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Why trust an organisation who can't get their accounts signed off by the auditors, ever? Imagine the outcry if that was Latics lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Burns Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 I find it amazing that we can have such diametrically opposed views regarding the same symptoms (and still play nicely!). The E.U. is performing it's function as it's founders would have wished in a world of diminishing returns. Viewed dispassionately and without the emotive but irrelevant rhetoric, the E.U. is without doubt one of the pinnacles of human achievement, an astoundingly complex organisation based on the highest aesthetic ideals and one which has endowed us with an unprecedented level of luxury that we probably don't deserve. Like any quality mechanism it needs constant fettling and maintenance. It beggars belief that 30 odd million people would prefer to place their faith in absolute lemons like Farage, Corbyn or Johnson. Why allude to the fact that we are having a nice friendly debate, then seek to anger those who disagree by coming out with such bull:censored: as 'the eu is the pinacle of Human achievement' or whatever it was (I can't see it on my fone when I'm posting, and it was obvs instantly forgettable!!). Also trying to tar none believers as ilk with farage whilst ignoring the fact you are alligning yourself with cameron, osborne et al. We're you trying to provoke a reaction? Here's one then: You're an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lags Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 A question to the out members, I understand that we indeed would negotiate a trade deal with all the EU countries, they want to trade with us as much as we need to trade with them. However, would this been done en bloc or individual sovereign states?. Also what would we still need to pay into EU coffers for no say what so ever? Because we would pay in lets not kid ourselves. What would be the knock on effect of the multi nationals that current place their head offices here?, it's not scare mongering it's something we just don't know. It's not a cut and dried issue when we delve into it, not black and white issue's, like immigration, the EU bill we pay, what do we get out of it. It's far more complex than single issue's the voters feel they have problems with. My fear is that the voter's in many cases will be voting in or out on one issue, not the entire round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 A lot of the points to stay being put to younger voters pretend that nothing positive in the world would exist without the EU. Freedom of movement for example. Do Americans or Japanese tourists find it hard to go to Paris or Rome or Crete on holiday? For that matter is it hard now for us to go to Egypt or Estonia? Estonia's an EU Member State. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 The scaremongering from Cameron is obnoxious. IF its that bad why did he agree in first place OH that was to get power wasnt it. Just as it was leading up to the Referendum for Scottish Independence, one of the main threats of which was that Scotland would lose its EU Membership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 None of that is due to EU its general World progress as others eluded to moved on we really haven't as much as many......and think a generation coming up finding it's not that great. Huge debts being covered up by politicians that will be gone when :censored: hits fan. Seriously think it is broke or wouldn't be having the ref in first place. Not delivered promises akin to the student loan promises say one thing do another. I can appreciate the argument that the EU is financially broke as one for leaving but not sure it's the reason this Referendum is happening - I think it's brought about more by our xenophobic media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piglinbland Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Where have I ali Why allude to the fact that we are having a nice friendly debate, then seek to anger those who disagree by coming out with such bull:censored: as 'the eu is the pinacle of Human achievement' or whatever it was (I can't see it on my fone when I'm posting, and it was obvs instantly forgettable!!). Also trying to tar none believers as ilk with farage whilst ignoring the fact you are alligning yourself with cameron, osborne et al.We're you trying to provoke a reaction? Here's one then: You're an idiot. Where have I aligned myself to Cameron? He's a self-serving :censored: if ever their was one. Get a screen that's legible before calling me an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piglinbland Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 It's not a world of diminishing returns. The last couple of decades have seen an astonishing fall in poverty at the same time as several billion more people being born into previously poor countries. In every continent bar one standards of living are surging ahead. It's only a few places mired in corruption, centralisation and bureaucracy that are stagnating. The EU and Russia are the obvious examples I don't agree. India and China have hugely raised their standard of living which admittedly accounts for an awful lot of people, otherwise I see more regression than progression. It would be interesting to know who is "surging ahead" and it would be interesting to see on which continents corruption, centralisation and beaucracy are the most rife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueatheart Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 (edited) It's not a cut and dried issue when we delve into it, not black and white issue's, like immigration, the EU bill we pay, what do we get out of it. It's far more complex than single issue's the voters feel they have problems with. My fear is that the voter's in many cases will be voting in or out on one issue, not the entire round. This is a very valid point but can also be applied to the remain voters. I honestly, genuinely believe that 95% of the British public do not and will never understand the full relationship this country (or another other country) has with the EU and the ramifications of leaving. I count myself within this 95% might I say as everywhere I turn I find some new issue. However, we have a vote and these big ticket items are what people will decide upon. Immigration, the economy, free movement etc are going to be the main issues people can understand and relate to and that is where the decision making will come from. I've said earlier in the thread that my main issue is Parliament should be sovereign, that is my "main" issue. I believe there should be no higher law-making power than our own nationally elected representatives. Whilst we have representation at EU level, it is less than 10% of the total (and I wouldn't expect it to be more in a body such as the EU) but I firmly believe that an EU majority vote in which our representatives vote against should not be able impose decisions on us. A question to the out members, I understand that we indeed would negotiate a trade deal with all the EU countries, they want to trade with us as much as we need to trade with them. However, would this been done en bloc or individual sovereign states?. Also what would we still need to pay into EU coffers for no say what so ever? Because we would pay in lets not kid ourselves. What would be the knock on effect of the multi nationals that current place their head offices here?, it's not scare mongering it's something we just don't know. I've run out of time to do this answer justice but it is not unlike Norway or Switzerland. The interesting thing about Norway is that it exports far more to the EU than it imports. So on that basis we would be able to trade whilst paying historically low tariffs (2%-3%) with the rest of the EU and yet source our own produce from where we wish. As for your bloc comment. We can only trade where there is demand, whether that is in Spain or Slovakia. If Spain need 10,000 widgets this week then we could try and trade with them but it could be Slovakia next week or France the week after. Just because we sign a trade agreement doesn't mean there will be trade and even if we don't sign one that doesn't mean there wont be trade. Edited April 11, 2016 by blueatheart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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