ChaddySmoker Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 1 hour ago, blueatheart said: Like Corbyn, don't pretend to represent the majority. You are not 'we'. The thread has moved into discussions about a fire in London and people are using it for political point scoring at will. It's badly misguided, ill judged and frankly disgusting. I think that the only point scoring on here is being done by the Tory supporters but as usual if WE respond WE are accused of playing politics. I thought that you won last week, No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusoe Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) There is point-scoring going on, which is disappointing if not surprising. But I think it's a hugely important and political event and the implications need to be considered early to reduce the risk of this happening elsewhere. Edited June 16, 2017 by Crusoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 13 hours ago, kowenicki said: http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/please-stop-exploiting-the-dead-of-grenfell-tower/19962#.WUL9QYXTWaM sensible. Is it fucking bollocks, what a load of self serving crap that article is. Quite a few people are culpable in this horror. There are only a couple of degrees of separatrion. It just so happens there are strong Tory connections, but all the tenacity should be applied if it were Labour connections, or any other party. Already the Mail and Express have made attepts to shift blame to the EU environment regulations and , and the focus away from May's atrocious handling. And given lots of details naming the guy where the fridge looks like it started, accidentally. Not to mention 2 Mail journos posing as relatives to gain access under the promise of no Leveson2. Politicising must not be confused with asking awkward and pertinent questions, and seeking the truth , answers and actions for the people who have suffred unimaginable horror. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, ChaddySmoker said: I think that the only point scoring on here is being done by the Tory supporters but as usual if WE respond WE are accused of playing politics. I thought that you won last week, No? Although I usually vote Conservative I'd like to think I've avoided point scoring. I'll have a go now though. Even Margaret Thatcher visited people in hospital the same day she visited Hillsborough. May has had yet another shocker. At least she's popped in this morning to see the injured. Edited June 16, 2017 by opinions4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 30 confirmed to have died now. 76 reported missing, but it is not clear if that is on top of the now confirmed 30. It is not hard to beleive that there may eventually be 100+ killed though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 There is so much confusion and lack of information and lack of clarity on who is dealing with what. I really thing there should be a national team that deals with this sort of thing that can roll into action quickly and spend their down time liaising with local authoroities and local agencies to get a system in place. And this be a cross party initiative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kowenicki Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 This is corporate manslaughter, obviously. Politics shouldn't be anywhere near this. It is a private building recently renovated with £10m worth of 'improvements'. How the hell has this happened in those circumstances? Somebody has been ill advised, somebody has signed off works that are not fit for purpose. Its not as if £10m is not a significant improvement program... but it seems to have been a complete joke in terms of what has taken place. Those found guilty whoever they are should go to prison... for a very, very long time. Could be contractors, could be expert consultants.... probably both. Could be the local building inspector too... who knows. Whoever it is they should be banged up. I am really struggling to understand how a £10m improvement program undertaken in the last 2 years makes a building worse if current regulations are followed. They clearly haven't been followed. I seriously doubt it will be politicians at fault here (current or previous going back 30 years to when it was built) local or national given that all the experts I have heard have said that if building regs had been followed this simply would not have happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, kowenicki said: This is corporate manslaughter, obviously. Politics shouldn't be anywhere near this. It is a private building recently renovated with £10m worth of 'improvements'. How the hell has this happened in those circumstances? Somebody has been ill advised, somebody has signed off works that are not fit for purpose. Its not as if £10m is not a significant improvement program... but it seems to have been a complete joke in terms of what has taken place. Those found guilty whoever they are should go to prison... for a very, very long time. Could be contractors, could be expert consultants.... probably both. Could be the local building inspector too... who knows. Whoever it is they should be banged up. I am really struggling to understand how a £10m improvement program undertaken in the last 2 years makes a building worse if current regulations are followed. They clearly haven't been followed. I seriously doubt it will be politicians at fault here (current or previous going back 30 years to when it was built) local or national given that all the experts I have heard have said that if building regs had been followed this simply would not have happened. This is sensible. It does initially look like Corporate Manslaughter. I know a lot has been focussed on how the cladding as acted as an accelerant, but all buildings are supposed to compartmentalise and contain for a period of time. For me this is even more mystifying. I know you have put the political element to one side, so trying to respect that as I am abgry about it, but want to post calmly, I think the political element comes from the local council ignoring repeated complaints by the resident action group, then threatening them with legal action, the inevitableclose relationship between the managment group and the fact the planning application repeatedly talks about improving the aesthetics of the building and the approval also included the asthetics as a reason for it being granted. Further, the cutbacks in the Fire Service has seen them not able to inspect and become familiar with every building. In previous roles I regularly gave guided tours to Fire Officers undertaking their annual inspections to familiarise themselves with layout, that responsiblity was transferred to the owner and as can be seen some shortcuts are likely to have been taken. Add in Govt support for Landloards, Boriss's comments re Fire Service and Landlord MP's rejecting Corbyn's attempt at reform, May's handling and you have the perfect political storm for the Govt. There is also talk that cheaper panels cost £2 less were used, saving 5K, but on a near £10m project I find that hard to believe, I suspect incompetence regarding the panels, but who knows at thins stage. I am trying to explain rather than cast aspertions As you say, despite all that, Building Control should have picked it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Pertinent: John Shafthauer @hourlyterrier Jun 15 John Shafthauer Retweeted BBC Breaking News How about we skip the 30-years of bullshit inquiries & send the police in now while all the people responsible are still actually alive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kowenicki Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 22 minutes ago, singe said: This is sensible. It does initially look like Corporate Manslaughter. I know a lot has been focussed on how the cladding as acted as an accelerant, but all buildings are supposed to compartmentalise and contain for a period of time. For me this is even more mystifying. I know you have put the political element to one side, so trying to respect that as I am abgry about it, but want to post calmly, I think the political element comes from the local council ignoring repeated complaints by the resident action group, then threatening them with legal action, the inevitableclose relationship between the managment group and the fact the planning application repeatedly talks about improving the aesthetics of the building and the approval also included the asthetics as a reason for it being granted. Further, the cutbacks in the Fire Service has seen them not able to inspect and become familiar with every building. In previous roles I regularly gave guided tours to Fire Officers undertaking their annual inspections to familiarise themselves with layout, that responsiblity was transferred to the owner and as can be seen some shortcuts are likely to have been taken. Add in Govt support for Landloards, Boriss's comments re Fire Service and Landlord MP's rejecting Corbyn's attempt at reform, May's handling and you have the perfect political storm for the Govt. There is also talk that cheaper panels cost £2 less were used, saving 5K, but on a near £10m project I find that hard to believe, I suspect incompetence regarding the panels, but who knows at thins stage. I am trying to explain rather than cast aspertions As you say, despite all that, Building Control should have picked it up. I agree with all of that. This incident has incompetence all over it. As for politicians at local and national level since these shambolic buildings were allowed to even be conceived are concerned.... useless fools the lot of them. The current politicians of whatever persuasion wont be any better in power. I include Corbyn, May, whichever new chinless wonder shows up for the liberals next and even (god forbid) a Green party leader (not that it would ever happen). That's my belief and I stand by it. Politicians say stuff... do nothing. Useless to a man/woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kowenicki Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 23 minutes ago, singe said: Pertinent: John Shafthauer @hourlyterrier Jun 15 John Shafthauer Retweeted BBC Breaking News How about we skip the 30-years of bullshit inquiries & send the police in now while all the people responsible are still actually alive? Agreed. Makes some arrests and then start asking questions. Contractors and the local building inspector is a good starting point. They will soon start singing under some pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, kowenicki said: Agreed. Makes some arrests and then start asking questions. Contractors and the local building inspector is a good starting point. They will soon start singing under some pressure. I'm really amazed Rydon's offices haven't been raided yet, amongst others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 12 minutes ago, kowenicki said: I agree with all of that. This incident has incompetence all over it. As for politicians at local and national level since these shambolic buildings were allowed to even be conceived are concerned.... useless fools the lot of them. The current politicians of whatever persuasion wont be any better in power. I include Corbyn, May, whichever new chinless wonder shows up for the liberals next and even (god forbid) a Green party leader (not that it would ever happen). That's my belief and I stand by it. Politicians say stuff... do nothing. Useless to a man/woman. If all politicians are the same, why are you the most constant poster on this thread with your right wing rubbish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kowenicki Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, singe said: I'm really amazed Rydon's offices haven't been raided yet, amongst others. Time is of the essence. Start with the contractors, they will point fingers immediately if they have been pressured on cost or works. If they have creamed off a big profit at the expense of a decent job that will be easily identifiable too. Why isn't this happening now!? Also the person that signed this off will be known. I hope he is already answering questions under caution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kowenicki Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, ChaddySmoker said: If all politicians are the same, why are you the most constant poster on this thread with your right wing rubbish? Right wing rubbish? Really? I'd say I'm centre right. But... whatever. This is not the point of the current discussion is it. I do think all politicians are pretty much useless from whatever side of the argument. You just think anyone right of centre is evil and anyone left is a saint. If you believe such a polarised view is sensible or fair then so be it. Just because i think all politicians are frauds doesn't mean I don't still have my own view. Silly question. Edited June 16, 2017 by kowenicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kowenicki Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Mayor of London... What's the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kowenicki Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Where there any politicians on the local TMO? Must be? I suppose those are the only politicians that could be in bother as they were directly involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kowenicki Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Local TMO have just, this morning, hand delivered a letter to a tenant survivor of the block notifying them of their anti social behaviour with regard to their noisy dog! Really. Christ almighty, did no body think that the letter might now be a tad insensitive and useless! The more we hear about this TMO the more we see they are a joke in this case. There will be culpability in there I would guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejh45 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 On 2017-6-16 at 3:02 PM, kowenicki said: Time is of the essence. Start with the contractors, they will point fingers immediately if they have been pressured on cost or works. If they have creamed off a big profit at the expense of a decent job that will be easily identifiable too. Why isn't this happening now!? Also the person that signed this off will be known. I hope he is already answering questions under caution. Bold statement.......how will they have creamed off this large profit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 What has been ignored is the cause, I've never heard of a fridge catching fire before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 43 minutes ago, deyres42 said: What has been ignored is the cause, I've never heard of a fridge catching fire before. Common killers in Londom. http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/news/LatestNewsReleases_Fridgefreezerdelayputtinglivesatrisk.asp#.WUYiWes4arU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeroyboy Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 41 minutes ago, deyres42 said: What has been ignored is the cause, I've never heard of a fridge catching fire before. The Fire Brigade won't be ignoring the root cause of the fire. Even down to an obvious fault in an appliance or tinkering with any such appliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 2 hours ago, opinions4u said: Common killers in Londom. http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/news/LatestNewsReleases_Fridgefreezerdelayputtinglivesatrisk.asp#.WUYiWes4arU Scary looking at the video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kowenicki Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) John McDonnell, shadow chancellor, calls for a million people on the streets to force the government out because it isn't a legitimate government. This is a very dangerous path we are going down here. Wake up people. I no longer think they are just crazy. They are dangerously crazy. Edited June 18, 2017 by kowenicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kowenicki Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 Pretty sure Sedition is still a crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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