LightDN123 Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 5 minutes ago, Dave_Og said: Why do people not get that we didn't get lucky with the draw. We breezed through qualifying and won our group. Others didn't. that's not luck, that's how it works! It's why France and Belgium, ranked 2 & 3 in the world had to play each other in the last 16. You make your own 'luck'. The amount of times I’ve had to explain this to people this last couple of weeks… Also, you don’t just get “lucky” over 4 major tournaments, spanning 8 years. I hope we win and Southgate can move on knowing what he’s achieved. Despite the grief. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 5 minutes ago, LightDN123 said: The amount of times I’ve had to explain this to people this last couple of weeks… Also, you don’t just get “lucky” over 4 major tournaments, spanning 8 years. I hope we win and Southgate can move on knowing what he’s achieved. Despite the grief. Nobody thinks we've played scintillating football but absolutely beats me why so many people seem to want to take out that frustration on a patently decent man who has delivered the best results over a now significant period of time in our entire history. it's like there's been collective national memory loss of how crap we'd been for the previous 40+ years or so. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 It's like complaining that Djokovic has an easier Wimbledon draw than someone ranked 50 in the world. Yeah, because he's earned the right to that better draw. We qualify better so get top seeding for the groups, then we win the group which means playing teams that haven't won their group. As it happens, that meant we got Germany in Euro 2020. But then apparently they were "in transition" so beating them didn't count either. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightDN123 Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 9 minutes ago, Dave_Og said: Nobody thinks we've played scintillating football but absolutely beats me why so many people seem to want to take out that frustration on a patently decent man who has delivered the best results over a now significant period of time in our entire history. it's like there's been collective national memory loss of how crap we'd been for the previous 40+ years or so. Honestly, I think it comes down to naivety. We supposedly have far superior players than every other nation (obviously not true), so if we don’t play free flowing football and go in 3-0 up at half time people moan. We have been poor at times, but we have shown improvement and seemed to have found a system that works for us, which has resulted in a second final. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightDN123 Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 3 minutes ago, nzlatic said: It's like complaining that Djokovic has an easier Wimbledon draw than someone ranked 50 in the world. Yeah, because he's earned the right to that better draw. We qualify better so get top seeding for the groups, then we win the group which means playing teams that haven't won their group. As it happens, that meant we got Germany in Euro 2020. But then apparently they were "in transition" so beating them didn't count either. Pens don’t count mate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pidge Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 hour ago, Dave_Og said: It most certainly isn't guaranteed! Thanks for correcting my English Dave. You are right nothing is guaranteed in football. Every time GS has brought on the fresh young players off the bench, the performance has improved. (We must caveat that with, of course that isn’t guaranteed to continue every time.) I’m just wishing it happened when the team starts flagging (or maybe before that happens) most matches around 60 minutes. The point I am really trying to make is that he doesn’t need to think the team will be worse after substitutions. The squad is now so good that substitutions are actually a positive thing. So why wait till we are a goal down or the last ten minutes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanishfly Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Gareth Southgate isn't my cup of tea but I thought the performance against the Dutch was very good; so credit where it's due. I just hope he now sees that Harry Kane is not as pivotal as he has previously thought and that young, energetic forwards can create far more havoc. So, well done GS for getting us where we are. Spain look one heck of a side and far superior to anything we've played so far. I don't think we'll beat them but I am prepared to eat masses of humble pie if we do. Come on England! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlemoor Lad Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 hour ago, yarddog73 said: We've been seconds away from going out, played mind numbingly dull football and fallen as lucky as we could of dreamed of with the draw, Southgate hasn't been spot on he's been fortunate but I'll take it. We played consecutive games having only one shot on target (which led to goals) in 90 minutes and scraped through on penalties yet somehow will walk out for the final in Berlin. We have got better the last couple of weeks and will need to improve again Sunday but we have a chance. All that is despite having Southgate as boss not because of him in my opinion. Correct on all counts Southgate has been the luckiest footballing man alive this past few weeks Had we found ourselves on the other side of the draw, it would have been curtains without doubt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 2 minutes ago, Littlemoor Lad said: Correct on all counts Southgate has been the luckiest footballing man alive this past few weeks Had we found ourselves on the other side of the draw, it would have been curtains without doubt Aaaaarrrgggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlemoor Lad Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Just now, Dave_Og said: Aaaaarrrgggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! I shall say no more on the matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlossopLatic Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Littlemoor Lad said: Correct on all counts Southgate has been the luckiest footballing man alive this past few weeks Had we found ourselves on the other side of the draw, it would have been curtains without doubt But we didn't find ourselves on the others side of the draw. Because we won the group. None of the last 7 managers could get beyond a quarter final he's now done it 3 out of the 4 times it's way past just being lucky. Edited July 11 by GlossopLatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlossopLatic Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 2 hours ago, Dave_Og said: Why do people not get that we didn't get lucky with the draw. We breezed through qualifying and won our group. Others didn't. that's not luck, that's how it works! It's why France and Belgium, ranked 2 & 3 in the world had to play each other in the last 16. You make your own 'luck'. Didn't Napoleon once say don't bring me good generals bring me lucky ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moldham Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Eriksons Euro 2004 group was France, Switzerland, and Croatia. Southgates this time was Denmark, Slovenia and Serbia. The expansion of the Euros from 16 to 24 means third teams go through and adds luck into the draw. Italy scoring a last minute goal against Croatia meant we got Slovakia in the next round when we likely would have got Netherlands or Italy instead. Given how results have gone you could probably say England would beat then both at that point but most would take Slovakia over Italy or Netherlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Just now, Moldham said: Eriksons Euro 2004 group was France, Switzerland, and Croatia. Southgates this time was Denmark, Slovenia and Serbia. The expansion of the Euros from 16 to 24 means third teams go through and adds luck into the draw. Italy scoring a last minute goal against Croatia meant we got Slovakia in the next round when we likely would have got Netherlands or Italy instead. Given how results have gone you could probably say England would beat then both at that point but most would take Slovakia over Italy or Netherlands In 2004 we were in pot 2 as we were seeded 7th. France were in pot 1. We are higher ranked under Southgate so we were in pot 1 for this tournament. As others have explained while probably banging their heads against a brick wall, thats why results matter… you earn the more favourable draw!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 I wonder whether Southgate’s perceived ‘wokery’ from a few years ago is a factor in some people’s opinions of him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 27 minutes ago, nzlatic said: I wonder whether Southgate’s perceived ‘wokery’ from a few years ago is a factor in some people’s opinions of him. Does every opinion on something trivial have to have a secret political agenda these days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightDN123 Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 hour ago, Littlemoor Lad said: Correct on all counts Southgate has been the luckiest footballing man alive this past few weeks Had we found ourselves on the other side of the draw, it would have been curtains without doubt 1 hour ago, Moldham said: Eriksons Euro 2004 group was France, Switzerland, and Croatia. Southgates this time was Denmark, Slovenia and Serbia. The expansion of the Euros from 16 to 24 means third teams go through and adds luck into the draw. Italy scoring a last minute goal against Croatia meant we got Slovakia in the next round when we likely would have got Netherlands or Italy instead. Given how results have gone you could probably say England would beat then both at that point but most would take Slovakia over Italy or Netherlands Bloody hell… I give up 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightDN123 Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Do people seriously believe that luck can span 4 major tournaments and 8 years of football. Surely not ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 hour ago, JoeP said: Does every opinion on something trivial have to have a secret political agenda these days? It wasn’t that secret 3 years ago when many people very openly disliked him because of it. I’m just trying to get my head around why some people are so dismissive of his achievements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worcester Owl Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 6 hours ago, Dave_Og said: I did! For some reason hardly any of the many top-class forwards have been making much of an impact in this championship; it's a strange anomaly but he's done as well, in goalscoring terms, as nay of them and abetter than most. You can never be proven right or wrong as to whether Watkins would have done better but the fact is - WE'RE IN THE FINAL!!! That's our third major final ever so it can't have been that bad! Is it not time to acknowledge that it's worked and get behind them rather than carping? And you can go on all you like about soi called luck but it's irrelevant. It's bizarre isn't it. Kane has scored 3x as many goals in this tournament as the world-renowned Mbappe, on whom Real Madrid have just spent a fortune. Oh and he and England are in the final. Mbappe and France are on the beach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 3 minutes ago, nzlatic said: It wasn’t that secret 3 years ago when many people very openly disliked him because of it. I’m just trying to get my head around why some people are so dismissive of his achievements. I don't think it's that deep here. We played well last night, but we can't deny the penalty was a little on the dodgy side and looked lost and clueless against Slovakia until a piece of individual brilliance from Bellingham. The other games hadn't really suggested he was getting the best out of what he had either. Might not be the right opinion, but it's a valid one to have without there being an undercurrent to it. Personally think it's a bit of column A and B. Can't deny his record, but he has had some rub of the green. I'm hoping his management for this tournament will be a strategy of waiting peak and we started climbing the hill yesterday with the aim of hitting the summit on Sunday. Now that would be clever... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worcester Owl Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 2 hours ago, Littlemoor Lad said: Correct on all counts Southgate has been the luckiest footballing man alive this past few weeks Had we found ourselves on the other side of the draw, it would have been curtains without doubt I am disappointed you haven't gone further. Let's face it, if we had trotted out onto the pitch last night without wearing boots, we would have been slaughtered. Bloody good job for us that Gullit and van Basten weren't picked either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disjointed Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 4 minutes ago, JoeP said: I don't think it's that deep here. We played well last night, but we can't deny the penalty was a little on the dodgy side and looked lost and clueless against Slovakia until a piece of individual brilliance from Bellingham. The other games hadn't really suggested he was getting the best out of what he had either. Might not be the right opinion, but it's a valid one to have without there being an undercurrent to it. Personally think it's a bit of column A and B. Can't deny his record, but he has had some rub of the green. I'm hoping his management for this tournament will be a strategy of waiting peak and we started climbing the hill yesterday with the aim of hitting the summit on Sunday. Now that would be clever... There is a history of teams playing their way into tournaments and then winning it, I agree the penalty was dubious but the 1st half performance and display by Foden especially was really good. I'd like to think that the penalty was God's way of repaying Koeman, it's a tough ask against a good Spanish side, perhaps this time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 (edited) 10 minutes ago, JoeP said: I don't think it's that deep here. We played well last night, but we can't deny the penalty was a little on the dodgy side and looked lost and clueless against Slovakia until a piece of individual brilliance from Bellingham. The other games hadn't really suggested he was getting the best out of what he had either. Might not be the right opinion, but it's a valid one to have without there being an undercurrent to it. Personally think it's a bit of column A and B. Can't deny his record, but he has had some rub of the green. I'm hoping his management for this tournament will be a strategy of waiting peak and we started climbing the hill yesterday with the aim of hitting the summit on Sunday. Now that would be clever... I’m talking purely about results and tournament finishes when i say achievements. It doesn’t make him immune from criticism and it also doesn’t mean he hasn’t had any luck at all. I’d guess we’ve had no more luck than most other teams that get to a final. And I know that most teams that get to a final do so by playing mostly what you would consider “lesser” teams. So I don’t think those things are big factors if a factor at all in why Southgate has achieved so much more than any other manager since 1966. I’m going to give that credit all to him, even though I’ve been shouting at the tv about subs and attacking intent on many occasions this tournament! Edited July 11 by nzlatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diggleblue Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 7 minutes ago, JoeP said: I don't think it's that deep here. We played well last night, but we can't deny the penalty was a little on the dodgy side and looked lost and clueless against Slovakia until a piece of individual brilliance from Bellingham. The other games hadn't really suggested he was getting the best out of what he had either. Might not be the right opinion, but it's a valid one to have without there being an undercurrent to it. Personally think it's a bit of column A and B. Can't deny his record, but he has had some rub of the green. I'm hoping his management for this tournament will be a strategy of waiting peak and we started climbing the hill yesterday with the aim of hitting the summit on Sunday. Now that would be clever... At least we won't get an English ref, I presume. The English refs were a disgrace in this tournament. Booking everyone and not using Var.Did they book so many inorder to weaken good teams to enhance England's chances? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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