Dave_Og Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 (edited) 10 hours ago, JoeP said: There's something not quite right about Southgate. Games like tonight an example. He has done well in a couple of tournaments but I think - with the talent at his disposal - we should be playing better.. Is it not just the case that we think our players are better than they are? English teams don't win the Champions League very often. But a bigger issue and one that's not really up for debate is that we are really weak in some areas and teams have to be strong everywhere to win tournaments. Maguire's place wasn't even up for debate if he'd been fit and nobody thinks he's a world class centre half. Now we appear to have plenty of good players but in similar positions. So if Southgate picks Saka he'll be slaughtered for not picking Palmer. Same for Mainoo/Wharton, Gordon/Foden etc. and then there's the situation that the player possibly in prime position to back up Kane missed half the season and hasn't scored since February. Edited June 8 by Dave_Og Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigDog Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 32 minutes ago, Dave_Og said: English teams don't win the Champions League very often. .. and then there's the situation that the player possibly in prime position to back up Kane missed half the season and hasn't scored since February. Some good points but…if we treat Real Madrid as a special case(!), in the previous ten years, three English clubs have won the Champions League Chelsea, Liverpool & Man City, one other Spanish club in Barcelona and one German club in Bayern Munich. Toney missed the first half of the season so at least he shouldn’t be tired…. For me, the worry is around players like Stones, Trippier and Shaw - all are carrying injuries and are likely to break down in tournament conditions. fwiw my starting eleven against Serbia: Pickford TAA, Stones, Guehi, Walker Rice, Gallagher Palmer, Bellingham, Foden Kane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 43 minutes ago, Dave_Og said: Is it not just the case that we think our players are better than they are? English teams don't win the Champions League very often. But a bigger issue and one that's not really up for debate is that we are really weak in some areas and teams have to be strong everywhere to win tournaments. Maguire's place wasn't even up for debate if he'd been fit and nobody thinks he's a world class centre half. Now we appear to have plenty of good players but in similar positions. So if Southgate picks Saka he'll be slaughtered for not picking Palmer. Same for Mainoo/Wharton, Gordon/Foden etc. and then there's the situation that the player possibly in prime position to back up Kane missed half the season and hasn't scored since February. Absolutely Dave. We have an embarrassment of riches in some areas but some positions are still weak. We have an expectation to be winning tournaments based on very little evidence I think. Maybe a narrow view of the premier league’s quality? Maguire and Stones have been a long standing partnership, now we’re going into a tournament with a new pairing and no left back. It’s not a massive surprise that Southgate prefers 2 midfielders in front of that rather than just playing another forward. But because of all our great forwards the expectation is again that we should win. We should be getting to the business end but going that extra step won’t be as easy as some think it should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 11 minutes ago, TheBigDog said: Some good points but…if we treat Real Madrid as a special case(!), in the previous ten years, three English clubs have won the Champions League Chelsea, Liverpool & Man City, one other Spanish club in Barcelona and one German club in Bayern Munich. Toney missed the first half of the season so at least he shouldn’t be tired…. For me, the worry is around players like Stones, Trippier and Shaw - all are carrying injuries and are likely to break down in tournament conditions. fwiw my starting eleven against Serbia: Pickford TAA, Stones, Guehi, Walker Rice, Gallagher Palmer, Bellingham, Foden Kane Feels a bit harsh on Saka. I’d have him in instead of Palmer and Trippier instead of TAA in the back line (Walker at RB). I’m not sure about Gallagher. Maybe TAA alongside Rice for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 1 hour ago, Dave_Og said: Is it not just the case that we think our players are better than they are? English teams don't win the Champions League very often. But a bigger issue and one that's not really up for debate is that we are really weak in some areas and teams have to be strong everywhere to win tournaments. Maguire's place wasn't even up for debate if he'd been fit and nobody thinks he's a world class centre half. Now we appear to have plenty of good players but in similar positions. So if Southgate picks Saka he'll be slaughtered for not picking Palmer. Same for Mainoo/Wharton, Gordon/Foden etc. and then there's the situation that the player possibly in prime position to back up Kane missed half the season and hasn't scored since February. If I'm honest, I've sort of lost interest in the wider game aside from Latics...I've had to look up who a couple of the players in the England squad play for (Crystal Palace, FFS!) With my limited knowledge of the Premier League/England squad, I would suggest there isn't the expectation for us to do as well as the last couple of tournaments in this one. We've sort of missed an opportunity to win something under Southgate in the last couple of tournaments when a lot of the players he had available were at their peak. That said, I think this is going to be (Champion's League winner!) Jude Bellingham's tournament to shine. Isn't there also some controversy about Southgate playing Foden out of position? One of the best players for the Champions of the Premiership and he plays him where he's not going to be at his best. Bonkers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 27 minutes ago, JoeP said: If I'm honest, I've sort of lost interest in the wider game aside from Latics...I've had to look up who a couple of the players in the England squad play for (Crystal Palace, FFS!) With my limited knowledge of the Premier League/England squad, I would suggest there isn't the expectation for us to do as well as the last couple of tournaments in this one. We've sort of missed an opportunity to win something under Southgate in the last couple of tournaments when a lot of the players he had available were at their peak. That said, I think this is going to be (Champion's League winner!) Jude Bellingham's tournament to shine. Isn't there also some controversy about Southgate playing Foden out of position? One of the best players for the Champions of the Premiership and he plays him where he's not going to be at his best. Bonkers.. I’m the same as you when it comes to knowing a lot of the players! But in my limited knowledge isn’t an issue that Southgate has is that Bellingham, Foden and Palmer are all best in the number 10 role? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 1 hour ago, TheBigDog said: Some good points but…if we treat Real Madrid as a special case(!), in the previous ten years, three English clubs have won the Champions League Chelsea, Liverpool & Man City, one other Spanish club in Barcelona and one German club in Bayern Munich. Toney missed the first half of the season so at least he shouldn’t be tired…. For me, the worry is around players like Stones, Trippier and Shaw - all are carrying injuries and are likely to break down in tournament conditions. fwiw my starting eleven against Serbia: Pickford TAA, Stones, Guehi, Walker Rice, Gallagher Palmer, Bellingham, Foden Kane You'd start TAA at left back?? It certainly shows the lack of alternatives as Trippier looks shot to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlemoor Lad Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 Many say that Southgate is far too defensive being an ex defender himself, We might have abundant riches up top, yet we can't defend for toffee. Even though last night's game was only a warm up, it was as disjointed as we've seen and a total embarrassment, He even had the luxury of 78 minutes plus stoppage time to rectify it but could he? Another useless tactician with ridiculous resources at hand He'd do a good job here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 15 minutes ago, Littlemoor Lad said: Many say that Southgate is far too defensive being an ex defender himself, We might have abundant riches up top, yet we can't defend for toffee. Even though last night's game was only a warm up, it was as disjointed as we've seen and a total embarrassment, He even had the luxury of 78 minutes plus stoppage time to rectify it but could he? Another useless tactician with ridiculous resources at hand He'd do a good job here It wasn't a competitive match and if they get it right over the next few weeks who cares. It's not down to the manager that Kane shinned a sitter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worcester Owl Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 I’m worryingly optimistic about our chances at Euro 24. We have two of the best players in the world in Bellingham and Foden and while the defence could be stronger, I expect us to reach the last four, which is my minimum requirement for a team with our resources. Once you reach that stage you also need a dose of luck, as there is very little difference between the top international teams these days. Southgate’s record is impressive and he does seem to be losing his cautious instincts gradually. There are no outstanding teams to fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteG Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 We've arguably got the best 3 players in the 3 strongest leagues in the World in Bellingham, Foden and Kane. The problem is at the back with the exception of Walker. I still have my doubts about Pickford although he has never really let us down he doesn't make saves that you think he shouldn't and without Shaw we haven't got a LB in the squad. We should play to our strengths and go for it, you score 3 we score 4. I'd go with the following: Pickford Walker Stones Guehi Shaw (Trippier whilst he's unavailable) Rice Mainoo Bellingham Saka Kane Foden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAFC Blues Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 Like some others have said, I don't keep up with football outside of Latics like I used to. I actually have quite a bad taste in my mouth for how the murky business side of the game has gone and how the rules now just seem to evolve to suit the wants and needs of the teams with the most money and power. Having said that, I still have that child like excitement when England are in a tournament. I don't think we'll win, we aren't strong enough at the back to allow our attacking talent the freedom they need but I think we'll have a good crack at it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlemoor Lad Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 5 hours ago, Dave_Og said: It wasn't a competitive match and if they get it right over the next few weeks who cares. It's not down to the manager that Kane shinned a sitter. Nonsense, By the way the Iceland players reacted at the final whistle you'd of thought they'd won the competition and 1 nowt flattered us, should have been 2 but for a slip. Had that been a top side we'd of been absolutely battered and not the right kind of preparation going into the first game is it? Am I right in thinking that Southgate hasn't won a thing or did I imagine it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 5 minutes ago, Littlemoor Lad said: Nonsense, By the way the Iceland players reacted at the final whistle you'd of thought they'd won the competition and 1 nowt flattered us, should have been 2 but for a slip. Had that been a top side we'd of been absolutely battered and not the right kind of preparation going into the first game is it? Am I right in thinking that Southgate hasn't won a thing or did I imagine it? You seriously think they'd play at full pelt a week before the proper games start? You do know how long it is since England won a trophy? Southgate is hardly unique. Plenty of people call me a miserable sod and with reasonable evidence but I really am a novice... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worcester Owl Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 15 minutes ago, Littlemoor Lad said: Nonsense, By the way the Iceland players reacted at the final whistle you'd of thought they'd won the competition and 1 nowt flattered us, should have been 2 but for a slip. Had that been a top side we'd of been absolutely battered and not the right kind of preparation going into the first game is it? Am I right in thinking that Southgate hasn't won a thing or did I imagine it? Shock, horror - visiting team celebrates a win at one of the most famous stadiums in the world. And there I was thinking Iceland would shrug their shoulders and not get excited at all. They just beat the team ranked 4th in the world. It was a big game for Iceland, not for us 9 days before we play a COMPETITIVE match - let me spell that out for you, a Euro 24 match as opposed to a warm-up friendly. Got that now? If you seriously think we would have been “battered” by a “top side” then I’ll leave you to wallow in your habitual pessimism. As for Southgate, he has a World Cup semi-final and a Euro final on his CV, so maybe let’s see how we get on this time before writing him and England off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightDN123 Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 (edited) Our loss to Iceland is like any loss in any friendly, who cares. Edited June 8 by LightDN123 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlemoor Lad Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 4 hours ago, Worcester Owl said: Shock, horror - visiting team celebrates a win at one of the most famous stadiums in the world. And there I was thinking Iceland would shrug their shoulders and not get excited at all. They just beat the team ranked 4th in the world. It was a big game for Iceland, not for us 9 days before we play a COMPETITIVE match - let me spell that out for you, a Euro 24 match as opposed to a warm-up friendly. Got that now? If you seriously think we would have been “battered” by a “top side” then I’ll leave you to wallow in your habitual pessimism. As for Southgate, he has a World Cup semi-final and a Euro final on his CV, so maybe let’s see how we get on this time before writing him and England off. Give over You're just making excuses for a load of overpaid lazy bastards lucky enough to be chosen to represent their country at a major tournament that can't even be arsed to break a sweat and show why they're wearing the shirt. There's so many parallels with what's been on offer at B.P it's astounding, After 58 year's of winning Jack shit, why all of a sudden do you think this clueless idiot has it in him to change that sorry statistic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlemoor Lad Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 20 minutes ago, LightDN123 said: Our loss to Iceland is like any loss in any friendly, who cares. Maybe we've got that used to being that uncompetitive round these parts, some have let this losing mentality become acceptable at any level. There's no point in playing the match in the first place if you don't go out there to win, especially one you should be winning at a canter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pidge Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 Lad, I don’t feel you are thinking. This was a 90% effort Practice match. It was purely to keep everyone ticking over up to the tournament. We cannot afford to loose Stone or Anyone to a 100% effort turn and accelerate. We cannot afford a metatarsal break because someone lunges into a tackle. Icelandic players on the other hand have time to recover, are motivated to put in a full out performance to put a win against England at Wembley on their CV. Something to tell the grandson. Much more worrying for me then the 90% effort, is the “misses” by Kane and Toney. They should be relaxed and calm and their composure when finishing should be at its best. I hope that improves with the excitement of scoring to win the cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 10 hours ago, Littlemoor Lad said: Maybe we've got that used to being that uncompetitive round these parts, some have let this losing mentality become acceptable at any level. There's no point in playing the match in the first place if you don't go out there to win, especially one you should be winning at a canter I just don't have it in me to be as angry as you appear to be about a poor performance in a meaningless game. Or, indeed, any game. I'm glad about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlemoor Lad Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 46 minutes ago, Pidge said: Lad, I don’t feel you are thinking. This was a 90% effort Practice match. It was purely to keep everyone ticking over up to the tournament. We cannot afford to loose Stone or Anyone to a 100% effort turn and accelerate. We cannot afford a metatarsal break because someone lunges into a tackle. Icelandic players on the other hand have time to recover, are motivated to put in a full out performance to put a win against England at Wembley on their CV. Something to tell the grandson. Much more worrying for me then the 90% effort, is the “misses” by Kane and Toney. They should be relaxed and calm and their composure when finishing should be at its best. I hope that improves with the excitement of scoring to win the cup. It doesn't fill me with much hope after watching that but then again we've gotten that used to being loser's, you can see why Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 England under Southgate: 2018 World Cup semi final 2019 Nations league 3rd place 2020 Euro champs final 2022 World Cup quarter final Never lost a World Cup qualifier Only lost 1 euro qualifier “Losers” 0 England tournament wins in my lifetime. 1 Oldham league win/promotion in my lifetime. I sometimes get stick for being positive but as an Oldham and England fan, if I didn’t take the positives and had just one emotion - fury - for not winning leagues/tournaments then I think I’d just give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GKing521 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 He should have one trophy to his name. The second half against Italy, on home turf, was shambolic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 28 minutes ago, GKing521 said: He should have one trophy to his name. The second half against Italy, on home turf, was shambolic. Shambolic is a bit over the top! But I agree with the general principle. We scored early then retreated into ourselves hoping to cling on. It was very poor and felt like a step back. I thought we rid ourselves of that mentality to some extent in the following World Cup. We didn’t go out against France because we were scared and defensive, we missed our chances and they took theirs. I’m looking forward to seeing how it all unfolds this time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcmetty Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 16 hours ago, LightDN123 said: Our loss to Iceland is like any loss in any friendly, who cares. The boomers won't like that. We have to display our everlasting superiority at every opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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